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Rocks/gravel

Care Tips
By Warlord220, Section Ask Guppylog
Posted on Sun Jul 13, 2008 at 01:00:28 PM PST
Tags: (all tags)
I have gravel and I find that most people don't pay much attention to it especially when you have an under gravel filter.



I have found that most disease and cloudy water in my tank is caused by the rocks or gravel.   Most of the time i myself will stick my hand into the water and move the gravel about to get all of the poop and whatever else dare live in it.  This method to me is a standard way of doing my weekly water change but sometimes it doesn't cut it.  So what I do is, gather as many 1 gallon buckets needed for my gravel and scoop it up with ether a plastic cup or my gigantic mesh net used for fish.  After removing all or close to all or close to all of the gravel in my tank I go to ether a bathtub with a massager on it or a sink(preferred not a kitchen sink) and rinse( while stirring with your hand to make the process faster) the gravel out bucket by bucket.  At first you will probably be amazed at how fast the water turns to grey and cloudy, but it will pass.  Now you will want to do this over and over and over so you get unwanted bacteria out, so plan ahead for an hour or so with just you and that gravel.  Even though you may get bored it is well worth your time and the lack of stress put on your fish from multiple water changes.  Hope this helps and if anyone has something to add please do.
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Rocks/gravel | 8 comments (8 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: Rocks/gravel (none / 0) (#7)
by inkmaker on Mon Jul 14, 2008 at 07:48:57 PM PST

I must echo the praise for the post and keeping the thread going. I am rather late to the party but think I should chime in anyway. And yes Unclescott, the more we think, talk and consider... the better we will get at the craft. But, I just can't stay quite either  .  .  .  So correct me where I am  wrong  :-!

 Cleaning the gravel is a little like an earthquake in nature, right?
Mother Nature washes the gravel with any number of gallons of water but She doesn't take out the rocks and scrub them. The rocks, gravel and sand are covered with Protozoa and Bacteria which do all those unbelievable things like turning dead things into Nitrogen, etc.

Undergravel, or gravel/sand bed filtration is the theme for large set ups, i.e. Shedd Aquarium, most Marine tanks and so on . . . Still changing the water, lots of it, and often is a rule even in the Shedd environment. I haven't seen a 50% water change suggestion even once in this discussion. How about 85 to 90%!

Once the equilibrium is reached this quantity needs to be maintained. Of course it may take a while to get up to a quantity like this. One wouldn't want to swing the pH or other water chemistries and kill the tank population. Gradually increasing the amount of water per change can get one into an area that is very much like Nature herself - constant fresh water moment by moment.

I haven't the foggiest idea of how much makeup water Shedd uses in their freshwater tanks but I would wager it's not trivial. Lake Michigan sits there besides them for unlimited use, all they need to do is filter out the parasites, etc. and raise the temperature to whatever is needed to match the living quarters of the inhabitants.

I'm just saying to change as much of the tank water as one possibly can as often as one possibly can. Change or clean the filtration material but not the rest of the tank stuff. I, for one, am able to do pretty much 80-90% once a week in about 200 gallons of water. It's not perfect, it's not exactly like Mother Nature would have it with a cool stream of recently distilled water (rain water) from the mountainsides running swiftly through the forest floor shaded by a canopy of tall greenery, but it's as close as I can get.
http://www.InkForYourPrinter.com



"Once the equilibrium is reached (none / 0) (#8)
by unclescott on Wed Jul 16, 2008 at 10:57:01 AM PST

this quantity (90%) needs to be maintained."

And that raises a key point. How many of us are prepared to do that?

There are accounts of naturally occurring pools in wooded areas (where channelization and drainage systems haven't yet dramatically lowered the water table.) It was estimated that those ponds, really just the upper extensions of said water tables, experienced over 90% daily water changes.

A lot of our aquarium fishes come from headwater areas. We collected some great southern red belly dace two summers ago about 15 miles south of here off of I-57 in a more controlled and "industrial" stream but it was still something of a headwater. Those headwaters still in a natural state (and even the four pretty major rivers beginner as run off from drainage tiles from farmer's fields (around Champaign, IL) have got to be contributing nearly 90% new water daily from rainfall and the water table.

Now the surrounding waters and the soil in and near the ponds probably harbor even more active microscopic creatures than most aquariums. I think it is David E. Boruchowitz who has most effectively promoted the idea that the entire aquarium is really the "biofilter." That mechanical gizmo in a plastic box is just part of the process. And several people would chorus, yeah, but that is why massive water changes must be quick, smooth and efficient, because not only does one absolutely not want the regular "filter" to stagnate (maybe killing the beneficial bacteria or going anaerobic) but that as much as possible of the tank (gravel if any, plants glass bottom and sides, other structure... should stay wet in order to do this.

In the most recent AKA Journal, one of the most talked about articles was Jack Heller's tour of his fairly automated fishroom. That he could use a system of valves and PVC pipes to partially drain most of his tanks to a certain level, start a pump a pump to raise water out of his three 55-gallon water holders, refill and treat the water needed to do 15 to 20% water changes every two days left me dazzled and jealous. And he did that within an hour! ;)

Jack, whose fishroom I know you must have been in several times, could do those changes every day, But (for some odd reason) he doesn't.

Up here in the 1980s and early '90s Joe Gargas raised a lot of wonderful discus of many strains. I was dumb-founded to drop by one afternoon and see adult pairs of discus on their sides in just a little water in the 20-gallon breeding set-ups. He drained fast and filled pretty fast using a system of holding "reservoirs" and a pump (sump?). He had drawn tap water through a carbon filter. In most cases good old "Chicago" (Lake Michigan) water, thus treated, was great for his young discuss. In other cases he ran RO and treated tap water together in an appropriate mix and routed that to his breeders. While he did that every day, maybe Sunday excepted, those discus grew very quickly.

Also made the acquaintance of Steffen Hellner (author of Killifish: A Complete Pet Owner's Manual) when he joined the old NANFA e-mail list. In addition to killies, he was really getting into temperate zone fishes, including several from North America. In passing, he mentioned that he did  daily 90% water changes, all the time. I greeted him with some news about his book being so appreciated by American killinuts (also mentioned that we were disappointed that it was recently out of print here and he responded that must be why the sudden drop in royalties from N.A.) I did have the temerity to ask if he did 90% changes after being away on a speaking engagement or collecting trip. He was quick to respond that of course not (implying that that would shock them) and that the partial water changes had to be walked up from a more modest level.

Another one of your St Louis confederates, Mike Hellweg (when not using some of your images to put together a live foods book for TFH) wrote a really interesting article on spawning and raising freshwater pipefish. I forget if that was for TFH or for the ALA's publication. Great article. It was noteworthy that he distributed young pipefish, which he had raised, to several experienced aquarists with the admonition that they must be given significant weekly water changes. Mike also lamented that NOT ONE of the people given those pipefishes had had them spawn. He concluded that none of them had been able to keep up with the weekly partial water changes.

I really appreciate your challenge to walk up the frequency of partial water changes and then increase the amount changed. But, given the other responsibilities of most people on Guppylog and the fact that few of us have huge water conditioning vats or pumps to remove the water, 90% is probably unrealistic for the vast majority of us. I did visit a guppy breeder in the north-west Chicago 'burgs who would daily rush home on his lunch break and pull 25% of the water from 80 or so 10-gallon guppy tanks and refill them again. But that is hard to do. And when he reached the venerable age of 40ish, he was backing off of that regimen.

Actually the person with one or two aquariums and maybe two or more of those 5-gallon clear plastic reservoirs for water coolers has a better chance of doing sizable daily water changes than a person with more aquariums. But they may have a zillion other responsibilities (school, work, family, maybe small children, maybe church, coaching and/or other community volunteer efforts, their house might just be in need of maintenance...) And when they are really bitten by the guppy-bug (killie-bug, cichlid-bug, livebearer-bug, etc.) then they have too many aquariums to daily service like that unless they have the good fortune to have a large space near a water supply, drain and consistent room temperature and the opportunity to sit back and plan out all that. To set up a basement fishroom like Jack has (or the 60 x 30 foot fish house Jim-Bob Graham is building) I'd need to buy a new home and have a lot of discretionary cash available. For most of us, myself certainly included, that just isn't going to happen this year or probably any year. :)

But I think your challenge that each of us try and increase the frequency of partial water changes (maybe from every four weeks to every two week or from every two weeks to every week) and then, if weekly or better, increase the percentage of the water changes (maybe from 15% to 25% or  25% to 40% or 40% to 50%) is important! George Maier, aquarium magazine columnist, shop owner, one of the founders of the AKA, used to contend that if we (after quarantining new purchases)  would just do weekly partial water changes our fish would avoid well over 90% of all aquarium diseases.

"Ich? We don't need no stinkin' Ich!"

But each of us will have to figure out how much we can do and how much more we might be able to do in the future. "Different strokes for different folks." Virtually nobody will ever be able to do 90% daily. I doubt Shedd Aquarium does that. So that is a noble goal. Newer aquarists (me too) may just be intimidated by the idea of 90 % daily water changes and want to flee the hobby. ;)

By the way, you did some calculations as to how much the partial weekly water change must be made to stay ahead of nitrate accumulation, in a Killietalk discussion. Would you please share that and how you arrived at that figure? Thanks!

**

"Cleaning the gravel is a little like an earthquake in nature, right?" Charles asked.

I was thinking that pulling the gravel out and washing it was a little like pulling a tree up to examine its roots to see how it is growing. ;)

But as a kid in bc times ("before chlorine" in this case) we used to do something pretty similar to that! I had five goldfish (before the cat nabbed the most expensive and slow swimming ones) and every week would use the old finger thermometer to get about the same temperature in the water run into the "rinsing" side of the kitchen sink. Then the goldfish would be gently slipped in there and the messy bowl would be emptied, washed out and sloshed in the other side.

I had some understanding that the bowl shouldn't be left or touch the bottom of that sink much because soap was a real fish-killer. (Prolly the result of reading some National Geographic article where Amazonian Indigenous people pounded some plants with soapy sap into a creek and pulled all sorts of gasping fish out. Kinda like fishing with hand grenades - where most of the fish sink out of reach).

Amazingly, not enough soap got into the bowl or adhered to the goldfish to harm them. I just cringe when I think of that now. At least they got 100% weekly water changes but had to have a very nominal nitrogen cycle. ;)

[ Parent ]



Re: Rocks/gravel (none / 0) (#1)
by Scott Lockwood on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 08:06:42 AM PST

This is not a good idea. The rocks help keep bacteria that you DO want as well. The real problem is over feeding, combined with lack of gravel suction. If you do a 20 to 25 % change every couple of weeks, and you move the siphon through the gravel while you do it, that will get most of the stuff out. If your tank is constantly over run without changing and cleaning the gravel, you're either, A: Over feeding, B: not doing water changes enough, or C: both.

-1

"I love to visit PetSmart's Tropical Fish Dept. to see what new diseases are around today." -- inkmaker



Re: Rocks/gravel (none / 0) (#2)
by Warlord220 on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 08:49:32 AM PST

Well I see your point and I am deffenatly one who has over feed in the past and sometimes now.  All I was doing is trying to share an idea on what I do.

[ Parent ]


Re: Rocks/gravel (none / 0) (#3)
by Scott Lockwood on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 01:17:56 PM PST

Which is TOTALLY cool, and I applaud you doing that - just be right. :-)

"I love to visit PetSmart's Tropical Fish Dept. to see what new diseases are around today." -- inkmaker
[ Parent ]



Do you have a gravel vacuum cleaner? Can (none / 0) (#4)
by unclescott on Mon Jul 07, 2008 at 10:37:06 PM PST

something be worked out for a birthday if you haven't? They can be used on about 1/3-1/2 of the aquarium at a time while doing a partial water change. That should get a lot of the dirt (a.k.a. bacteria food) out while leaving more of the beneficial bacteria in. There are far more beneficial bacteria in the gravel, with or without an ug filter than probably anywhere else in the aquarium.

Some aquarists tear down their tanks that have an undergravel filter once a year. As beneficial as they can be. it is easy to leave some detritus there and in time it may sour the gravel. All of a sudden, usually at over one year everything on the tank dies.

The last time I was in the basement of Chicago's Shedd Aquarium, they had either four or six room sized filters of gravel and sand six or eight feet deep. Basically they are remote UG filters. You should see the size of the pipes drawing water from all the 1. cold fresh water tanks, 2. tropical freshwater tanks, 3 cold marine tanks and 4 tropical marine tanks! Municipal water departments have used systems like that too.

Undergravel filters are about the most efficient filters one can have on an aquarium - IF they have all of the gunk taken out from under them. If you aren't going to get a gravel vacuum, it may be well that you would take the gravel out and clean it. In fact, if you have a place to put the fish and 2/3 of the water (the 2/3s on top do so. That is a little like digging up the house plants to see how they are growing though. ;)  

You mention how cloudy your water is. Is your gravel a pretty hard gravel (like red flint) or that stream gravel/ pea gravel from a garden center, which has a lot of calcium laden pebbles that dissolve quickly? Are there any large rocks in the the tank, perhaps of the limestone, sandstone or dolomite persuasion? :)

Running water through a net is a good idea. But in time that will wear out or at least fray your net. Maybe  for Christmas ask a couple of plastic buckets (5 bucks each at Menards). Also request a plastic colander. In that washing gravel story, I mention that my colander is metal. Guess that one has been in the organization a while. :)

Form a little more on Christmas, birthday and other gift ideas, please take a look at http://www.guppylog.com/story/2003/11/17/10939/076

Be careful around bathtubs or sinks. You don't want to pay a plumber $50-$100 to rod the clog out of the drain. ;) For more on that please take a gander at Gravel Wash and other related topics in Immediate Help.

Warlord, you are a veteran here. Why would you submit a log? What is the advantage over just submitting a diary? :)

[ Parent ]



Re: Do you have a gravel vacuum cleaner? Can (none / 0) (#5)
by Warlord220 on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 10:48:25 AM PST

Man I feek bad now. but yes I do have a gravel vacuum cleaner and I do use it once in a while >.> .  Sry guys about the inacurate post and for all of you who proved me wrong thank you i will now better my ways.

[ Parent ]


I know you've got to feel a little like you got (none / 0) (#6)
by unclescott on Tue Jul 08, 2008 at 03:03:02 PM PST

jumped by a tag team. I'm glad you are still here. :)

Just in double checking answers, looking up questions for Guppylog, I've found that I was wrong with some of my assumptions. Getting involved with a forum or any group where info is tossed around can be humbling. But the more we think and consider... the better we will get at the craft. (Of course sometimes it seems like taking on infinity.)

You've raised some interesting issues and great questions on Guppylog, both last year and recently. Where would be be without them?

I offered a suggestion during a discussion at a local computer club and the people in that section of the room turned on me with the most horrified look in their eyes. (So, you eat babies do you?) It was as if they were guided by a remote control. I had made what turned out to be a really awful suggestion.

I make fewer suggestions now (completely shutting up though is impossible), ask more questions after considering them first (and Googling some first so they don't sound too elementary) since swallowing that slice of humble pie. But I'm going back tonight. ;)

A classmate of mine once suggested, "Nothing ventured, nothing gained." ;)

[ Parent ]



Rocks/gravel | 8 comments (8 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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