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High pH and Sandy particulate clouding

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By texasian, Section Ask Guppylog
Posted on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 02:17:14 PM PST
Tags: (all tags)
I have a cloudy tank and need some advice on whether or not to use clarifier?



I recently ventured into the world of guppies having had dojo loaches and plecos before.  My questions are these:

1. I've set up the 10 gallon tank and cycled it with the filter with aged water (aged a week) for a week before adding anything except a sword plant before adding anything.  I've now added two male guppies to help the bacterial cycle and get the tank started.  I've tested the water, no nitrates, no nitrites, no chlorine and very soft water.  The (possible?) problem is that the alkalinity is about 200ppm and the pH is about 8.4.  Once things settle in I am planning on getting some dojo loaches too(hence the sand), but I am wondering if the high alkalinity and pH are problematic and if so, what can or should I do?

2.  I have a sand substrate over gravel (1 inch of gravel, 1 inch of sand).  I washed both quite well and then filled the tank with RO water from a water store around here as recommended by the petstore, but the sand seems to have clouded the water significantly.  It was playsand from the garden store, also recommended by the petstore.  Since it's been about two weeks, should I be expecting the sand to clear out more over time or should I go ahead and try water clarifier to get the sediments to clump together and get filtered out.  I don't want to add any chemicals needlessly and the guppies seem to be doing well depite the cloudiness.  I do want to stress, it's not bacterial bloom cloudiness (I've experienced that before) it's definitely substrate cloudiness.  Any advice is appreciated since I'd like these little guys to be as happy as possible.

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High pH and Sandy particulate clouding | 3 comments (3 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
Welcome to Guppylog Texasian! (none / 0) (#1)
by unclescott on Mon Jul 21, 2008 at 01:23:19 PM PST

Yours is an interesting situation. I will admit to ducking out to loaches.com and a couple of other sources, because while I have seen and like weather loaches, I have not experience with them.

Have yours been the oriental weather loach, M.  anguillicaudatus? A measure of my unfamiliarity is that I was surprised that the European weather loach, Misgurnus fossilis, isn't the one usually in the hobby. (Good Grief, there are maybe 51 species and subspecies of Misgurnus and there are loaches from other genus also called weather loaches!)

Was also surprised to see that they enjoy a vegetable component in their diet, which doesn't sound too different from guppies. While listening to a night game (go White Sox! Go Cubs!) it is kind of fun to amble around the fish tanks, popping out the insides of cook peas, crushing them to size and plunking them in selected aquariums. The pea shells either go to the snails and bristlenoses or to the small, jealous dog following me around. [Some dogs reason that if those strong scented flakes are going to other pets, they should go to me too. The dog of some friends of ours got a hold of a canister of flake food, chewed the container open and devoured everything in the canister. Come to think of it, probably operating on much the same logic, our daughter, when 2 or 3, was discovered glomming down small handfulls of trout chow like they were Cheerios! No problems resulted, though she had a decided tendency to swim upstream in the tub. ;) ]

There are play sands and there are play sands. Some of them seem to be great for fish tanks. Some sand can not go through the acid test (a little Muriatic or hydrochloric acid) because it has too much additional mineral in it. Conventional wisdom with sand or rocks it to dump a little of that acid on it (as you know - only outside). If there is a reaction - a little bubbling or fizzing - don't use it.

Some sellers have pawned off sands, which would be better intended for construction than for sand boxes or aquariums, because of sharp edges. Would using a hand lens allow one to see the edges of the grains?

Aquarists also are sometimes hesitant to use sand with plants, since the sand may pack too tightly for plant roots. Of course with loaches that bury in the sand, that might not be an issue. Just keeping the plants rooted is the issue. :) Probably you wouldn't have plants in the sand.

Could you use Java ferns with the loaches? Would the loaches nibble upon Java moss, hornwort or water sprite (great hiding places for guppy fry?

By the way, would guppy fry be at risk with larger loaches? Sometimes, given the guppy's proclivity for dropping too many fry, that wouldn't be a problem.

Some play sands from hardware stores or pool centers seems to be fine. It may have to do with how much rinsing a person is prepared to do or the local sources. I have been astonished by the seemingly high calcium content of pea gravel from local garden canters here in northern Illinois.

For more on that go to http://fins.actwin.com/search.cgi and search for play sand.

That is interesting, the addition of RO water. You are obviously more familiar with the use of this water than most first time visitors to Guppylog. Is your regular water supply quite high in mineral content?

So long as guppies are gradually acclimated to water of a pH of 8.4, they shouldn't be harmed. A lot of municipal supplies around here are buffered quite high so as to avoid leaching from lead pipes. The guppies don't seem bothered. And as biological processes get going, pH tends to drop.

I'm not so familiar with relative measurements of alkalinity. Is the 200 PPM alkalinity or general hardness or TDS (total dissolved solids) or something else? (Go to that FINS site and search for measuring alkalinity - whoowee!)

I think you are wise to add no more substances to that tank than you have to. I know of aquarists who are far more chemically aware than I, who do that, but moderation or abstinence in doing those things, is often wise.

It may be that the cloud will just go away. Glad to see that the guppies cycling the tank are doing fine - another reason not to tweak the tank unnecessarily. The cloud may just "go away" and I'd look for that first. What kind of filtration are you using?

Guppies, in terms of natural habitats, usually come from waters with an alkaline tendency. A lot of those places may have a rocky under layer (limestone?) which would encourage that. However places like Trinidad usually have much more rain annually (though sometimes it is seasonal and in cloudbursts). That would tend to dilute the water's overall mineral content. Certainly our Illinois well water and maybe yours would have more of a mineral content to it, so your seeking of a moderate level for your loaches and Loricariids usually shouldn't hurt the guppies.

There seem to be a couple of great aquarium societies in Texas. Houston has an active livebearer group and they helped in hosting the ALA convention on the San Antonio area a couple of months ago.

I had wanted to get to that or to the NANFA event in September in the Athens, TX area. http://www.nanfa.org/convention/2008.shtml
Having attended one national for the year, that will probably be about it, unless i slip into the IFGA event in Chicago, whenever the IFGA updates their web site.

Your state, huge as it is, has been/ will be a good area for several great aquatic events.

Please let us know how your tank turns out, how your guppies do and how the guppies and loaches get along!

Thanks and all the best!



Re: Welcome to Guppylog Texasian! (none / 0) (#2)
by texasian on Tue Jul 22, 2008 at 10:15:22 AM PST

thanks for the lengthy reply.  i think my biggest mistake (yet unavoidable) mistke was to get my guppies from the local petco in college station.  the day after i posted this one of my male guppies tails fell completely off.  they gave me another male who seemed all right, until this morning when all the color has left his tail.  he is now in quarantine in a hospital tank until he croaks, which i believe to be inevitable.  then two days after the first male lost his tail one of the females went from swimming quite actively to dead at the bottom of the tank within the space of an hour and a half.  ironically, i have also gotten some guppies from petsmart and they are all doing swimmingly, so to speak.  the (rude and brusque) manager at petco told me that my female died of bloat from too much feeding (despite my protestations that she hadn't eaten the night before or that day and was the same size and dimensions as when i purchased her.  i think he's just a jerk and not very interested in knowing that he's selling inferior stock.  needless to say, that store shan't be my place of purchase for animals any longer.  it's a shame, because there aren't any other pet stores as far as i can see in the area, maybe i'll be making trips to houston with a cooler to get any more fish.  

as for the water quality here, it is pretty hard normally which is why i got the RO water, and i've been testing it, coming up soft as a pillow so there's not a problem there.  the cloudiness has subsided a great deal now so i'm also glad about that.  as for the sand, i got playsand from walmart and did an acid test, it seemed pretty inert and except for managing to retain grit despite repeated washings, has been pretty good.  i normally wouldn't ues sand, but the loaches really like soft burrowable substrate so they can bury themselves.  i hope the plants will be okay in them, i have the root parts buried in the gravel to give them more space to spread their roots since i know the sand can get somewhat compact, but hopefully with the loaches (oriental loaches by the way) they'll help to enable more circulation for the roots.  right now i have a sword plant and peacock ferns.  i'm really not sure if the loaches will try and eat the fry if and when they come since they tend to be bottom-feeding scavengers, but i'm really not trying to breed the guppies, if i have a 10-15% adulthood rate i'll be happy.  the loaches are generally very docile if agile and quick.  if you can get some for your tank i would definitely advise you to do so.  they're wonderful little fish, very smart and will even eat directly from your hand once they know you're the food dispenser.  my old loaches would come right up to the glass and look at me and if i put my finger in the water they would feel my finger with their barbels and take pellets/veg right off of my fingers.  i do have a small birthing tank cycing with a female right now, mesh bag overing the filter intake, since when she does birth i don't want to be pulling dead fry out of the filter.  i plan on trying to raise some of the more robust ones to build up the tank, and the lesser quality ones wil probably be a nutritious treat to my eastern red-spotted newts (seperate vivarium of course).  i'll be posting more if other issues arise (petco and pstsmart as my suppliers...you know it's going to happen) but feel free to comment back and check out those loaches.  

[ Parent ]



I mix our liquid rock (none / 0) (#3)
by unclescott on Fri Aug 01, 2008 at 03:19:03 PM PST

(well water with a rather high hardness - probably around 400 PPM and a TDS of 600) with different portions of RO water so as to keep guppies and livebearers happy (aiming for DH 150 -180 PPM and TDS - total dissolved solids - at 200 - 250 PPM or a little more.) Rain forest killies, many Corys, tetras, peacock gudgeon and other rain forest critters may not breed until the water has less mineral and I walk mineral content down with gradual additions (siphoned in through an airline) until they breed and hatch successfully..

When moving fish from one aquarium to a new one, I'll use 70% water for the new tank - taken from a healthy tank. If the TDS is higher than the measure in the old tank, I'll add a little RO water to pretty much match the tanks. If it it too low in mineral, some treated, seasoned tap water gets added.

I'm sure you know that pure RO (or distilled or RI or rain) water will flat out kill fish through shock, or through popping gill membranes and possible suffocation. So this is for lurkers. Knew of a couple of persons who moved several $1,000 worth of discus and other cichlids straight from Chicago water (usually great for many fish and even for growing out discus) to straight RO water. What a sad and expensive tragedy! Can't believe that some pretty smart people never read up or asked around about that first! :(

TDS sounds a little dumb as opposed to measuring for hardness, but it is useful in moving fish from one tank to another. (Somewhere I do have a local water department report to the EPA listing the amount in PPM of each of the minerals in our tap water.) And if the TDS goes up significantly, I know that I had better do a partial water change pronto because collected waste material has gone up significantly.

Oh yeah, and I got the usually $50 TDS meter for $25 from an orchid web site. They last a decade or more. One has to get new batteries once in a while. (All batteries are recycled.) Six tests last night went quite quickly. (A clean yogurt cup of a tank's water gets poured into a jar - that way microbes or algae spores don't get carried tank to tank with the meter. The cup gets tossed in the bleach later pile.) Also don't have to fiddle with test kit reagents and pour sometimes toxic chemicals down the drain. :)

Has you tank gotten clearer? Probably you will not have to use one (and siphoning may be necessary if you do.) Sorry that never got responded to.

See flocculate with a Google search of Guppylog or the Net. That's not talking dirty. :)

[ Parent ]



High pH and Sandy particulate clouding | 3 comments (3 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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