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heat wave woes...
By Fishes4Nancy, Section Diaries Posted on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 04:42:14 AM PST Tags: (all tags)

here we've been having a truly brutal heat wave, and of course, there has already been fatalities.

it was 94 F here yesterday. my tank thermometer only goes up to 86, and there it sat. since that is the highest measured level, it could have been 90' in that tank for all i know. all was going well at first. no one seemed bothered by it. i got some fans in the computer room, since it is in the attic (hottest room in the house), but it didn't help much. when i was doing my water change, i put in some cold water (the fish were taken out of the tank), but that was only a quick fix.
i considered floating a frozen water bottle, but i was afraid of how much the temp may drop, and having just gotten over an ick outbreak, was pretty hesitant.
however, after acclimating and reintroducing the fish into the tank, one female guppy looked considerably upset. she stayed secluded, in the corner, and was breathing a bit harder than usual. she had no health problems, and trust me, i gave her a very thorough look through. no worms, no ick, nothing. she was due to drop in a week or so.
unfortunately, when i came up this morning, she was dead, on the floor. of the tank, obviously, not the attic floor. all water parameters are in the clear. no tankmate aggression. no obvious health issues. it all points to the 86+ temperature.
at least i still have her 3 fry, which look as though they may be snakeskins. still, one of my favorites in the tank. oh well.

< May be last post for a while | I have officially seen my first birth!!! >

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heat wave woes... | 8 comments (8 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Keeping fish comfortable in hot weather is (none / 0) (#1)
by unclescott on Tue Jun 10, 2008 at 06:52:01 AM PST

not easy. If they were removed from too hot a tank, it is hard to return them or they may shock and, as you discovered, jump out. Since guppies and many other livebearers and killifish, in the wild, may find themselves in marginal waters and occasionally cut off from the stream, jumping out of the puddle and flip-flopping across the mud (especially at night when there may be fewer predatory birds out) to the stream makes sense. Sadly that doesn't help in captivity, unless one has a couple of clear-sided shoe-boxes full of water and on the floor. ;)

Your concern about dropping the temperature and messing up the guppies is also a very legitimate concern. Guppyloggers (Miskairal was one of the first) have suggested putting a drinking water bottle (the water could be tap) in the freezer. When the bottle is frozen, it could be floated in a tank near the filter outflow. Your very perceptively mention that the room temperature greatly exceeded the aquarium thermometer range means that sometimes we may have to improvise.

You may be stuck with using the ever popular "finger thermometer" or just floating the bottle of frozen water for a few minutes at a time.

There is an old house thermometer out in the carport, which would be handy in this case. Usually these days, when I'm curious about a water temperature or TDS, a cup will be used to dip about 4 oz of water out of the tank so that it can be poured into am 8 oz jar. An aquarium thermometer/hydrometer or a TDS meter can be lowered into the jar and measurements made. That means nothing gets dragged between tanks - which cuts down on the spread of algae spores and any very rare disease pathogens. (I hope.) The house thermometer could be placed in that jar without any garage junk getting into a fish tank. (Rinse the jar and measuring stuff after wards. Maybe leave the cup and jar out in the sun to bake off pathogens.)

Another Guppylog person suggested taking the tank top off (we've of course already turned off the lights and pulled the shades to cut off direct sunlight) and aiming the outflow of a fan on the water's surface. So long as the fan isn't in danger of getting knocked in the aquarium, that is a terrific idea.

A variation of this is to turn the HOB (hang on back power filter) up if it has an adjustable outflow. The filter pad could also be cleaned or even temporarily removed to increase water movement. Some outflows can be adjusted to increase turbulence at the surface - increasing evaporation, lowering temperature and also adding a little oxygen to the water.

Often an airstone can have the bubbles turned up. If you have an old air pump not in service, consider using it to drop airstones into tanks to supplement other filtration or to even run two airstones. This is a good time to use that old bubble wand.

If one has a cement or tile floor somewhere in your home, one might also relocate a tank or plastic tub down there. (Covers, if anything, are even more important here, because shadows can spook fish and cause jumping.) Basements or first floors are often a lot cooler than the rest of the house. (Look to see where dogs lie down.) Unless the tank or container hold a LOT of water, don't put it directly in line with an air conditioning outflow.

Ironically as temperatures rise, so do the metabolisms of your guppies and other fish. However warmer water also carried less free oxygen. And more fish waste uses up more oxygen.

I've separated a couple of females (for a couple of weeks here) who might be too harassed by their males. That also allows for feeding them a little less than I would in a community tank and less draw on the O2 supply.

There are undoubtedly other ways to try and keep our fish more comfortable/ less uncomfortable in warm weather. Maybe something here is of use or triggers even better ideas from someone else. :)

And I'd better go start a couple more airstones. ;)

Re: Keeping fish comfortable in hot weather is (none / 0) (#2)
by Fishes4Nancy on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 03:51:29 PM PST

the heat has subsided, with no more fatalities, but a fresh crop of issues is on the horizon (as always).
i'm afraid that my gourami is knocking on death's door. his fin rot, thought it has slowed down considerably, has not stopped, despite my many treatments. no one else in the tank is showing any signs of fin rot. he has not stopped swimming, but he has stopped eating. he no longer tries to get to the food.
of my three remaining fry ( out of four-- one was a runt), one has developed a pintail and one seems to be halfway there. after a bit of reading here on gl, it seems that this is a possible sign of velvet, so i am now treating for that as well (compatible meds). i also know that pintail usually lead to fry death in about 48 hours. i'm pretty bummed, seeing as these are the fry of the fish that died in the heat wave, and are looking like they may grow up to be snakeskins. if none make it to adulthood, i'll be really heartbroken. not to mention, their mom's death has left my trio a couple, and i was hoping that they could balance it out, though i don't yet know the sexes.

is it possible that the heat spike and subsequent drop could have to do with the pintail/s?

[ Parent ]

Unfortunately yes, :( (none / 0) (#3)
by unclescott on Wed Jun 11, 2008 at 07:34:15 PM PST

Increased heat will limit the amount of oxygen in the water and increase the needs of the fish for that very same oxygen. Gourami, of course, can gulp air and extract some O2 from it.

I see this with us in hot weather too. We (ok some of us) are not as energetic and tire out more easily when it is very warm, as opposed to on a cooler (60-70F day) out in the yard. I suppose that could also force a fish's immune system to work harder, to accomplish the job of protecting the fish.

The problem with bacterial infections is that by the time we see the infection, the fish is already seriously ill.

Overly warm water and water with pollutants in it are sources of stress. Part of the treatment is to reduce stress.

Velvet is helped by light (it has chloroplasts) so turning off the light to keep the tank less hot can also rob the velvet of some of it's energy. (I've even used masking tape and plastered cardboard or newspaper all around the tank's glass in stubborn cases.) With both velvet and bacterial infections (fin rot) partial water changes of even 50% daily help because it keeps the water cleaner and takes some free-swimming bacteria and velvet (Oodinium) out of the water. A level tablespoon of aquarium salt/ sea salt/ or agricultural feed salt per 10 gallons of water(more or less) may be beneficial. Some velvet treatments have an antibiotic to combat secondary infections. I can see how that that shouldn't work against either fish, if two different antibiotics weren't incompatible.

Gourami can also be vulnerable to velvet. Just what you wanted to hear. Make sure all food is eaten and that none sits around decaying. That decay also feeds the bacteria and the velvet organisms.

Usually one of a couple medicinal dyes (again interfering with some of the biological processes) is used with velvet. They may be harmful to some plants.

The more partial water changes with treated, at least briefly seasoned, water one can make (and I know that is not always easy) the cleaner the water. The cleaner the water, the more able the fish's immune systems are able to fight the problems and heal the stricken fish. That is so easy to say and sometimes so hard to do.

Good luck and all the best!

[ Parent ]

Re: Unfortunately yes, :( (none / 0) (#4)
by Fishes4Nancy on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 04:41:28 AM PST

i think velvet is the least of the gourami's problems. he only swims when he wants to get a gulp of air, and then he swims right back down to the substrate and sits there. very sad. i don't expect him to still be with us when i get home from school.
the fry are doing all right. the pintail is still looking okay. it's very strange. he/she doesn't show any signs of distress except for the tail. other than that, he's acting completely healthy. the others still look very good.

temp is back to normal (77' F). i'll try the light thing. i worry for my plants, but what other choice do i have? i'm out of salt, but i will try covering the tank with a blanket. it shouldn't overheat now.

also, i tried some of the carbonated water last night. i added 3 capfuls in the 30 gal. i'm not worried about PH drops, because it was a little high yesterday when i tested. how often should i add? should i use more/less? i looked for one that contained only carbonated water and a bit of salt, instead of all of the chemicals and preservatives. it doesn't seem to have affected any of the fish, and it may take a while to show on the plants.

new idea: could the salts in the CO2 water act as the salts earlier suggested to aid treatment? that'd be cool if i could kill 2 birds. i don't think they are iodized. also, there's only 10mg per 8 oz's.

[ Parent ]

carbonated water? (none / 0) (#5)
by unclescott on Thu Jun 12, 2008 at 07:40:19 PM PST

Is this water from some sort of soda water? I'm really on thin ice here (though an echo of this rings from some discussion in the past on GL)... But carbonated water, a la club soda or seltzer or soda water can be used to euthanize fish by way of anesthetizing them and then suffocating them!

This has been kicked around here before. http://www.guppylog.com/story/2008/3/19/53546/6538
also has a link to the account where yanketh used the Hagan unit on his aquarium. G'Ma raised the question about using the carbonated drinking water. I don't know that anyone, even in extreme moderation tried it.

I know that I have rescued livebearers who were out cold in a small Sprite bottle (as a part of a much larger rescue of somebody else's large shipping box which leaked all over in an airport!) As near as I can guess someone bought a bag of livebearers, dumped a pair of them in the pop bottle for the guy with the big box (it is not unheard for people to graciously pass stuff around like that). The bottle, when opened, smelled of sprite!

Since I was opening and repacking a couple dozen other bags, I poured 1/2 of the water in that bottle out and replaced that half with water from my "set-up-water tank". Looking back at them a little later, I noticed that the formerly upside down and very still Poeciliids were now floating on their sides. I quickly emptied all of the water out of that Sprite bottle, along with them them briefly in a covered jar, rinsed the then empty pop bottle with tank water (fill 80% full, cap, shake and bake...), emptied the rinsings, put water from the set-up tank in there, poured the jar of fish through a fine-meshed net and eased them into the bottle. I was blown away by the fact that they seemed fine!

So please be very sparing in your addition of carbonated water to your aquarium. Just a tiny residue in the pop bottle was enough to pretty nearly put that pair away.

I'm glad that isn't visually bothering your fish. Leave that along for now - just more stress.

What salts in the carbonated water?

There are a lot of mineral salts which can dissolve in water, either as compounds such as sodium chloride or as some combination of magnesium, calcium, potassium or even phosphorous, iron, and so on. You'd have to see your town's EPA report from your water department to even guess at what they are.

Healthy plants should be able to endure a couple of days out of the light. Java ferns, if we don't mess them up them with with carbonated water, should last for weeks!

Iodized salt shouldn't hurt livebearers, which are secondary freshwater fish anyway. They usually are very tolerant of a little seawater in the tank.

One can actually have fish get into physiological trouble (fish goiter) by not having any iodine (in minute trace quantities) in the water.

Don't use table or cooking salt however. I think the reasons for how that salt can threaten the lives of aquarium fish are given in Immediate Help.

You mention how the gourami is sitting on the bottom. That sounds disconcertingly like nitrate/nitrite/ammonia poisoning. How many partial water changes have you made in the last week? What percentages were they?

Good luck! Sometimes we make our luck by making partial water changes. ;)

[ Parent ]

Re: carbonated water? (none / 0) (#6)
by Fishes4Nancy on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 04:36:13 AM PST

Alleluia! pintail has fanned out! it's a miracle! i have to question the velvet diagnosis here though, since i accidentally left the light on last night (i know, i know), and then this morning, he/she is fine! time will tell just how much better it is though.

none of the healthy fish are bothered by it. they are all very active, and after 48 hours of the soda water in the tank. i used a very small amount (one capful [cap being from a standard 1-liter soda bottle] per ten gallons), and the sword plant in the back is actually doing much better! i do not know which salts the ingredients mean by "salts". that's the entire ingredients panel "Ingredients: carbonated water, salts."

unc, don't you think by now i know better than to use table salt?

as expected, the gourami passed away before i got home yesterday. i tested the water the day before, and nitrite was 0, nitrate was at 20, and ammonia was at .25

i know the ammonia is not impeccable, but i wasn't too worried by it. i am almost certain that the fin rot is what killed him. he was slower then, and i imagine it was very painful to swim, and he either didn't bother to get to food before the guppies or he wasn't fast enough. i'm certain he was sitting on the bottom because he was either too weak, or it hurt like the dickens to swim anymore.
i made 2 water changes within the last 7 days, and they were about 15-20%.

[ Parent ]

unc, don't you think by now i know better than to (none / 0) (#7)
by unclescott on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 10:02:49 AM PST

I'm 99% percent sure that you wouldn't use table salt - which is better odds than I would give myself. ;) Mostly that was for the good people looking on.

Sorry about the gourami. I an still concerned for you (when I should get off of the computer and do water changes of my own!) on the ammonia. Get all meds out of there via water changes &/or activated carbon (or a more expensive resin if you want to spend the $).

I really, really would recommend getting some relatively inexpensive hortwort at a petshop, fish friend, local fish club meeting or even a garden/pond center. (All of the tasty pond plants I have fed the raccoons came from a garden center extension to the pet shop I often buy from. The schnoodle and I need to drop by for everything from dog food to bird seed for the feeder to the a 50-lb bag of gravel to veggie flakes to the impulse buy de jur.)

Keep up the partial water changes. Add no new fish until "pointy" stays a "well-rounded personality." :)

All the best!

unc
(off to do the chores, thinking that stamp or coin collecting doesn't involve feeding or water changes)

[ Parent ]

Re: unc, don't you think by now i know better than (none / 0) (#8)
by Fishes4Nancy on Fri Jun 13, 2008 at 08:09:16 PM PST

yes, now that gourami is gone, there are really no dieseases to treat. i should put the carbon back in.
if 'hortwort" is a mis-spelling of "hornwort", i already have some in there. all of my plants are live at this point.

and no plans for new fishes, at least not until i can sex the fry. i know experienced breeders can tell as early as one week, but i have had fish much longer than fry. i also can't find my magnifying glass.
i think a platy trio would be nice in the future...in about 6 months...

[ Parent ]

heat wave woes... | 8 comments (8 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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