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God, and what do I come back to??

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By Fishes4Nancy, Section Diaries
Posted on Mon May 19, 2008 at 06:20:31 PM PST
This is the third time I've tried to post a diary here. This is insane. I've been gone for nearly a year, but what is going ON???



I read somewhere from unclescott that the server is getting old or something. Anyways, I'll try to keep this short, in the hopes that if it doesn't post (again), i won't have wasted too much time.

in summary: cleaning out 30 gal
have one fish left (sob sob columnaris)
water changes galore
more fish to come next Thurs

planned fish that I'd like to have eventually in this tank:
molly trio
guppy trio
platy trio (?)
male dwarf gourami

We'll see how PetSmart's stock is next Thurs.

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God, and what do I come back to?? | 13 comments (13 topical, 0 hidden)
Re: God, and what do i come back to?? (none / 0) (#1)
by Fishes4Nancy on Mon May 19, 2008 at 06:23:52 PM PST

*is in shock* it posted! it took like 7 more tries. ah well. anyways, for plants, i need to revive the java ferns i have now, and i hope to get a nice centerpiece and tie some java moss to it. i wonder if petsmart has java moss these days. hornwort would be nice too. we'll see. i would have posted this before, but you know, server issues.



I share your dismay Nancy. I do hope that Scott L. (none / 0) (#3)
by unclescott on Wed May 21, 2008 at 09:25:02 AM PST

is able to repair the server - or get a new one. I don't see an ad for his hosting service anymore. If his personal economy is anything like that of the Midwest or mine, it could be a tough ride.

Maybe to help pay the bills here, everyone (of the remnant still dropping by)needs to at least click on the advertisements once in a while. That doesn't commit one to buying anything. And if anyone wants to set up a web site, they can e-mail scott@guppylog.com

That, by the way, is not my addy. Just an interesting coincidence that we have the same first names.

If a person keeps clicking upon your browser's renew/ reload button (that circular one at the top left of the page, usually you will get on. If there is some sort of error message, let Scott know at that e-mail address given above. He has been fast to clear that up when I've brought that to his attention.

A couple of the really faithful participants from a year ago have e-mailed me off list and said that they are throwing in the towel. The next few months will tell if this site can get better hosting or if it will further wither away.

Thank you for trying to get in. :)

[ Parent ]



Yeah we're having troubles (none / 0) (#2)
by New Guppy Momma on Wed May 21, 2008 at 09:21:31 AM PST

with the site.
A few of us stick around and try and tough it out.

Glad to hear everything is ok with you.

As for me...I'm getting into ponds (my Mom has one and my Hubby is digging me one sometime this summer). And I have Mollies and such as my main tanks. I only have one 10 gallon for Guppies.
Oh and I moved from Texas to Pennsylvania last summer. So I had to start all over with my tanks.

Anyway welcome back.

Somedays the site is fine other's I can never get on. I think it is the server and all the patches for the new operating systems don't work too well with the older operating systems (I run windows 2000 and have a multitude of problems).
Before all else fails....do a 25% water change ;)
[ Parent ]



Nancy, concerning your aquarium... (none / 0) (#4)
by unclescott on Wed May 21, 2008 at 10:57:33 AM PST

How long has it been since the demise of those other fish? I'm assuming that it has been weeks or months. I think you know this, but (for the benefit of others...) there have been new aquarists who will poke new fish in a an aquarium a day or week after a wipe out. That of course really limits the chances that any of the new fish will survive.

You are talking about setting up a pair or trio in a 30-gallon aquarium too. That seems to me very wise. Again, if there are those exploring setting up their first aquarium, please resist the temptation to put very many fish in the new tank.

Putting more than a pair or three of small fish makes establishing the absolutely necessary nitrogen cycle (without which no aquarium fish can survive) very hard to do. And later on, when we add new fish, we need to realize that another 2 or 3 fish will again upset the equilibrium in that tank and it will take time for the beneficial biological processes to properly re-establish themselves. And, even though it will slow down that process, continue with the weekly partial water change of 25-45% treated, "seasoned" water so that the fish are not too stressed. (Remember, in head waters where so many of our fish come from, good ol' mother nature may be changing 90% of the water a day.)

The bacteria responsible for columnaris (for more look in Immediate Help or Google Flavobacterium columnare or Flexibacter columnaris) may be in most aquariums and natural (American and other) waters in non-lethal numbers most of the time! Read an article a while back, which documented the surprisingly widespread outbreak of columnaris even among American game fish in July and August. Those are the months when waters get warmest, hold the least oxygen and may have the most pollution (natural and otherwise) dissolving in the water.

We also have visited a trout hatchery (in early October) where the young trout looked just great in their linear "ponds" or runs. Cold, reasonably clean water is always being run through these rearing areas. As the trout grow they are redistributed in smaller numbers to similar sized grow out ponds. In larger sizes, a number of them had fungus on their mouths.

I didn't ask around for an analysis of that, but the thought "mouth fungus," that less virulent form of columnaris came to mind. Everything was pretty much the same as with the younger, more healthy trout, EXCEPT that I would guess that the total weight or body mass of those larger young adults was considerable more per pond or per unit of water that was the case with younger fish.

Here were these professional fisheries people making the same mistakes that we make so often as aquarists. They were crowding their fish beyond what was safe and immune systems were unable to hold off infections.

I'm beginning to believe that when I leave a female guppy, other livebearer or spawning pair of killifish or rainbowfish in an aquarium to drop their young (as in the case of the livebearers) or lay their eggs, that I should then pull the adults and dedicate that tank to just that batch of fry. If I can't give the young that space to properly grow up, I'm sentencing them to crowding which will at least stunt their growth and maybe expose them to all manner of diseases.

This is a very hard thing for me to do. It means that fewer youngsters are being saved. It may also mean that fewer species will be kept in the future, but that the aquariums will be more efficiently used.

But, as an injury (just a little ding) from over the winter heals up and I can change more water, there are healthier, more colorful and bigger young adults growing up. That should make the hobby more fun. Maybe I'll stay around. ;)

Having said that, yesterday I got an e-mail from the Inkmaker. Both of us bought some fish from a very reputable aquarist at a show in March. Still Charles found our old nemesis Camallanus had pretty much destroyed the pair he had purchased. (After three months, which is often when the  Camallanus finally show themselves, the adult fish are badly parasitised and may be infertile - the internal reproductive organs may not even still be whole.)

I have noticed that the younger fish I have, haven't been growing like they should. I was thunderstruck. ALWAYS I will treat pet shop stock for internal parasites. I didn't think that I would have to do that with that gentleman's stuff.

Now, as I'm packing for the 12-hour drive to Syracuse (for the AKA convention, a buddy and I leave at 3:30 AM tomorrow), I've got to pull those young native killies from their tank, replace their water with aquarium water in which an anthelmintic (Flubendazole) has been dissolved and hope that they get cleaned out while I am gone.

Also, because I wish to be careful not to infect a healthy tank (even though the odds aren't too great at the moment), after I handle those fish, I will either move to depositing equipment in the bleach barrel or wash dishes (gasp!) so as to clean any possible pathogen off of my hands.

Nancy, you have that 10-gallon tank. You might want to quarantine your new purchases there if you can. Towards the 10th or 11th day of the two-week quarantine, feed them more sparingly and treat them with a broad-spectrum anti-parasite treatment. Usually there is an anthelmintic or two (de-worming medicines of the same sorts as used for treating dogs, cats, hoses, even people...) and an antibiotic or two. The antibiotics are mostly to treat secondary infections where the parasites let go. They WILL probably destroy the nitrogen cycle (such as it is) in the quarantine tank, So after 2-3 days of treatment, whisk your fish in a net to the 30-gallon tank, which has been set up with much the same type (and temperature) of water as in the quarantine tank.

One can't guarantee that the new fish will still survive. But one could suggest that their chances of living long and healthy lives (by guppy standards) are even as much as 5 to 10 times more likely. :)

This isn't really for Nancy, but if you are an absolute newbie looking along, please understand that without 1.) a quarantine and 2.) a very modest population in that new tank, even when using a product like Cycle or some other bacterial supplement to help kick-start the nitrogen cycle, and 3.) maybe without a preventative treatment for parasites (which should not be done in the regular tank if at all possible), the odds are unfortunately great that you will kill either the new fish or, if you are just introducing new fish into an established, that there will be losses (5-100%) among your established aquarium fishes.

And as we just demonstrated <sigh!>, even experienced aquarists can slip up, in this case by not administering a preventative treatment for internal parasites, and have their new purchases get really messed up.

At least we didn't lose any other fishes in our care because of that. :)

All the best!

[ Parent ]



Re: Nancy, concerning your aquarium... (none / 0) (#5)
by Fishes4Nancy on Wed May 21, 2008 at 07:24:07 PM PST

actually, it's been about a year, judging by my last posts (late 2006) since the columnaris plague wiped out the tank. unfortunately, my only remaining fish seems to have contracted it as well. this is a huge setback and i'm pretty upset. i have to retreat EVERYTHING, and try to be more thorough (somehow...).

also, i'd love to read the articles in the IH, but due to server hiccups (i'm supposing), i always get the message "sorry, i can't seem to find that story." it's very frustrating. i've refreshed several times. ah well. it's quite moot now, with the new outbreak.

    Syracuse, NY? if it is i wish i had known! i live probably less than an hour from there, maybe 90 minutes.

  as for the 10, i could reset that up i suppose. it's been inactive for about 1 1/2 years now. i gave the java ferns i had in there to the school at the beginning of the last schoolyear.

      so, i could try for the 10. if i did, i'd have to do it within about an hour after school tomorrow. luckily, it sits right next to a sink. but then i have a lesson  and then we're off to petsmart. in the very least, i need new filter media, maracyde (AAHH), a better heater, fresh food...

    you know what i'm tired of? hearing all of the stories whre it's like, "and then it just happened and i had all these healthy fry and a great tank!" and the newbie didn't even try. not their fault, but why is nothing ever easy for me/us then? why do i have to fight a disease for 18 months? oh yeah. because i buy from petsmart. and i hardly use my quarantine tank. awesome.

[ Parent ]



Re: Nancy, concerning your aquarium... (none / 0) (#6)
by Fishes4Nancy on Sat May 24, 2008 at 09:58:44 AM PST

           well, columnaris proved to be a false alarm. i had just cleaned the tank and  there was a bit of dirt floating around, which somehow ended up sticking to my platy's lower lip like a fuzzy moustache! yay! so, with a clean bill of health, i purchased a guppy trio and a male dwarf gourami (see "our tanks" update). imagine my surprise to find baby guppies the very next morning! but, as is the custom with my tanks, as soon as something good happens, two bad things must follow. as i was feeding yesterday, i noticed one small white spot on my gourami, and one on a female guppy. ich granules, courtesy of petsmart. and then i found out that i had about one capful left of maracide, enough for 5 gallons of water.

           then found that the gourami is territorial when feeding, though no one has been seriously hurt, and that the male guppy is quite literally a constant rapist, which makes a girl quite unhappy, especially after giving birth the night before. since the gourami is the slower swimmer of the tank, spotted guppy female who is yet to be named seems to enjoy dealing him a few body shots. however, after getting thwacked by him a few times at dinner, she's keeping her distance a bit.

      the only blissful ones seem to be the platy and the four babies. hopefully tempers will ebb once everyone realizes that they're not in petsmart anymore and food doesn't have to be a contest. oh, and once the ick outbreak clears. i'm planning on treating for at least 2-3 weeks to eliminate those flipping spore things.

[ Parent ]



Re: Nancy, concerning your aquarium... (none / 0) (#7)
by Fishes4Nancy on Sat May 24, 2008 at 11:46:53 AM PST

a note on the guppy/gourami aggression: it is pretty funny to watch a gourami get chased by a female guppy, who's being chased by a male guppy. but then the gourami gets nipped and the female gets raped and it's not quite as funny anymore...

[ Parent ]


Re: Nancy, concerning your aquarium... (none / 0) (#8)
by Fishes4Nancy on Tue May 27, 2008 at 01:42:50 PM PST

even though i'm basically talking to my self now...YAY! the babies are 5 days old now!! and all four are still alive! and starting yesterday, the babies started getting their black markings! i'm expecting them to be leopard patterned. they are getting black markings, concentrated o their fins but also their bodies. i can't believe how quickly they got them! the ich is also clearing up a bit. the gourami still has a few spots, and the larger female guppy (recently named Thisbe) was just flashing against the ceramic pot, but everyone seems to be better on the whole. still a ways to go. anyways, after adding fungus clear (not only did the jungle brand Ich Clear recommend adding jungle Fungus Clear to guard against secondary infections, but my gourami got a few mysterious patches), the gourami seems quite miserable. i know for a fact that the two meds are safe with each other, but the gourami stays in his teritory (the upper-right of the tank) and pretty much only breathes through his labyrinth. he's slightly sluggish and keeps his fins clamped some of the time. he was perfectly fine until i added the fungus meds. i think he just dislikes the chemicals in the water, but they are necessary, especially for him. i don't think it is a medical problem, because fungus clear actually claims to treat clamped fins. i'm sure it's just discomfort. also, ammonia had a bit of a spike from the added bioload, but nothing dangerous, and it should go down after the saturday water change and with the adjusting nitrogen cycle.

[ Parent ]


Re: Nancy, concerning your aquarium... (none / 0) (#10)
by New Guppy Momma on Wed May 28, 2008 at 04:23:40 AM PST

If you think your male guppy's bad you should see my male mollie (my lyretail, my silver sailfin passed away about 2 months ago). He's always after one of his 3 girls. But the black Yucatan mollie isn't part of his harem. Guess I need to get her her own husband.

Congrats on the guppy babies. My 6 males I put in the Beast are all showing yellow tails and snakeskin bodies. They'll go to the pet store hopefully in the next month. They're about 4 months old.

As for your gourami he'll stake out a territory and tend to stay there. And mine (have 2 right now. a dwarf platinum and a tiny honey) always seem to come to the top to breathe. As for him and the fungus meds I think your right that he just doesn't like his water medicated. That or he was actually sicker than you thought and he's resting and healing.

Good luck tho with your fish.
I just lost a platy yesterday. He was clamped and sunken belly for a day or two and then just went belly up. Oh and I lost a moon a few weeks ago to dropsy.
Before all else fails....do a 25% water change ;)
[ Parent ]



Hope that the diseases and their effects do (none / 0) (#9)
by unclescott on Tue May 27, 2008 at 08:24:03 PM PST

continue to go away. More than one partial water change a week (if you can let enough treated water sit for a day or two) is ok. You may have to add a 1/3 medication dose with a 1/3 water change if the instructions on the treatment suggest a certain time period and the change is done before that time is up. Then of course change away with the treated water and if you use activated carbon in the filter, put that back in to absorb the rest of the medications.

As for the male guppy really pursuing the female, female guppies are most likely to be fertilized within 24 hours of dropping. Some would say that is usually the only time she can be inseminated. Females automatically (it is not a matter of choice for her) release a pheromone which "tells" the male guppies that she is ready for mating (as if the males needed any more motivation). That may be necessary in a stream system where dispersed guppies must hide out some but seems a little "much" in an aquarium.

Syracuse was great. Beautiful city, neat campus, though we struggled to find our way around in the rains last Thursday. I realize that it isn't always easy just jumping in a car and running up to a show.

Googling Syracuse, New York Killifish show or Syracuse, NY fish show would have gotten you on a site (the AKA site) which gave details. Theoretically everyone should be registered and have paid a fee to help defray the bills. However if a visitor asks for an attendee, the attendee will be able to usher visitors around the fish room and take a peak at the fish sale room after the rotation of people is done about lunchtime.

[ Parent ]



Re: Hope that the diseases and their effects do (none / 0) (#11)
by Fishes4Nancy on Wed May 28, 2008 at 04:41:41 AM PST

  yes well, lucky me. i hate petsmart. i'm surprised no one has just torched that place. Pontoufle (pon-TOOF) the gourami has hexamita. the internal type. awesome. i have no idea when i can pick up the meds. i have to go to a viewing today and a funeral tomorrow ( my singing coach died), and friday after school i am going to stay at my friend's house for the weekend, because my parents are driving to Indiana to see my sister's friend's highschool graduation. i could try for after school monday, but either way, we're looking at quite a time gap here, and i don't know if he is going to make it. hes throughly miserable. i expected him dead this morning. he was barely moving last night. just floating in his territorial corner, fins clamped, poo stringy, and practically belly up. he seems slightly better this morning, but i know his condition is getting better obviously, because he isn't medicated. jungle makes some medicated food for internal/external parasites, including hexamita, but again, by the time i can get it for him, he may no longer need it. of course, i want to treat everyone else for this now. cheers petsmart! what a great establishment!

      one question: since the babies are in a net breeder in this tank, i feel i should treat them as well. would it be safe to feed them the medicated fish food, in ground up form?

[ Parent ]



Re: Hope that the diseases and their effects do (none / 0) (#12)
by New Guppy Momma on Wed May 28, 2008 at 07:13:20 PM PST

Yep feed them what you would be giving the other's.
As for the Hexamita I had a bout with it when I started up my Pennsylvania incarnation of the Beast. A swordtail I had brought it with him.

Jungle Labs Parasite Clear worked well. I did 2 treatments (48 hours and a 25% water change between doses).
As for a temporary fix try treating with the Fungus Clear. It has a few of the same meds as Parasite Clear. The Fungus Clear is actually what worked in my Texas Beast when I had Hexamita. Try daily treatments with that (25% water changes would have to be daily as well). Or just treat with the Fungus stuff every other day (48 hours and the 25% water change between). Then you should only need one dose of the Parasite Clear (if needed) when you can get it.

I keep stocked up on Parasite and Fungus Clears.

Good Luck.
Before all else fails....do a 25% water change ;)
[ Parent ]



Terrific idea! We can't plan for everything but (none / 0) (#13)
by unclescott on Thu May 29, 2008 at 08:19:44 AM PST

one or two treatments probably could be kept on hand (and out of the way - thinking of little kids and clumsy guys like me). Having a little aquarium or sea salt on hand is good. Baking soda can be shared with the kitchen. One could keep some Acriflavin for treating velvet (killies, bubblenest builders like Bettas and anabantids, rainbowfish...), Ich treatment for livebearers, a broad spectrum internal parasite treatment for all new fish in quarantine...

Salt and the medicinal dyes probably last the longest though the latter may also be carcinogens and should be handled as little as possible. Stuff in powdered form (as from chemical supply houses) lasts longer than liquids. Probably all will last longer if out of the sun and stored at "coolish" room temperatures.

One liquid anthelmintic solution (Praziquantel mixed from the dog de-wormer Drontal) is to be kept in the refrigerator. That would sure surprise a midnight snacker! ;) But the point here is not to make sure that all family members are free of flatworms, but we might even check the manufacturer's site for, or ask the vendor what, would be the best way to store the specific treatment. :)

[ Parent ]



God, and what do I come back to?? | 13 comments (13 topical, 0 hidden)
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