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Rare livebearers

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By josh117
from the lol department, Section Diaries
Posted on Fri Mar 21, 2008 at 02:28:41 PM PST
Im looking for a few certain kinds of fish that are hard to find,



Does anybody know where I could get a female "merry Widow", a male "Black-Barred livebearer", and female lyretail swordtails and platies?
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Rare livebearers | 12 comments (12 topical, 0 hidden)
There are several livebearers tagged with (none / 0) (#1)
by unclescott on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 02:52:55 AM PST

Black-Barred livebearer. :) Which species do you mean or which reference did you pull that from?

Thanks!



Re: There are several livebearers tagged with (none / 0) (#2)
by josh117 on Sat Mar 22, 2008 at 07:09:08 PM PST

i got it from this 500 species of fish book that i bought at the book store, it has about 40 different kinds of livebearers in it.

[ Parent ]


That is a pretty useful book. But what do they (none / 0) (#3)
by unclescott on Mon Mar 24, 2008 at 09:42:53 AM PST

consider a Black-Barred livebearer to be? What scientific name did they attach to it? (In another group of fishes, I did catch a name error even in that recent work.)

You came pretty close to answering the question. :)

That book was reviewed on Guppylog after a visit to Borders. But much as one might like, they can't buy every fish book they read or scan through at the bookstore. Borders according to a recent business section article in the paper is in trouble. Maybe it would have been better to have bought yet another general fish book. ;)

Scientific names get changed often enough. And sometimes they get changed back again, something that is even more confusing. But popular names can also be confusing. Some North American fishes may have a half-dozen to a dozen regional popular names and that is just in the US, not counting Canadian and Mexican names. Shops, wholesalers and fish farms sometimes get clever and coin new common names or borrow an old name for a another fish. One magazine publisher used to be notorious for suggesting "popular names" which no one else had ever used. There are a lot of nominees for a black barred livebearers. :)

The other night, on the correct premise that browsing a book I was familiar with would help me go to sleep, I picked up a copy of Innes's venerable Exotic Aquarium Fishes. The first edition of that book came out 70 years ago! My copy has got to be a garage sale or library sale special which is 40 years old. (The post 1970 TFH editions plugged some more "recent" color images in there and despite their intentions, made something of a mess of that work.

Once one sorts through the name games, Innes' book (once considered something of a Bible of the hobby for a couple generations of aquarists) is still surprisingly useful. And curiously enough, scientific names in there have fallen out of favor and with recent DNA work may be brought back. Dr. Donn Rosen, a livebearer specialist "lumped" a lot of the livebearer in the genus Poecilia in the 1960s. That somewhat dated Innes' book, in part, reflects the hobby from before World War II! Back then not so many fish species were imported to the US from Africa or Asia. A lot more wild livebearers from relatively accessible Central America (or southern North America) were imported for the aquarium market.

Many of those are not so common in the hobby and almost never found in the shops. ALA activities, auctions of the larger, more active aquarium societies, the few local livebearer clubs (New England, Houston, the Pacific northwest...) and Aquabid are among the more likely sources of those fish.

I probably should know this, but what part of the country (US or otherwise) do you hail from? This isn't to smoke out your specific address, because that is not our business, But as a example, I live the Chicago area or in the southern 'burgs of Chicago.

With Rosen's work, guppies were moved from Lebistes to Poecilia. The fishes of the Genus Limia (warm water livebearers from the larger Caribbean islands) were also moved to Poecilia. Even the Mollies were moved from Mollienisia to Poecilia.

Some years ago a Cuban scientist by the name of Rivas published a response to Rosen works, contending that Limia was indeed a genus in good standing and (something important to fish taxonomists or systematic people) probably descended from a common ancestor. That has been pretty much accepted by scientists and hobbyists. To my bemused surprised, a couple of livebearer posts lately have begun again referring to Mollienisia and Lebistes!  This can cause one to start making b-b-b-b-b noises.

A lot of changes have been talked about at the last couple of ALA conventions and I missed out on them, as I will (sigh) again this year. I always thought that this species and genus stuff was set in stone. Boy was I wrong!

Certainly genus can be a matter of opinion, hopefully based upon fairly informed reasoning. But the data which goes into defining what fishes are in a genus include a number of things. So if two fishes will not produce viable offspring past two generations as a hybrid, they are probably different species. Even behavior, though this is quite controversial, may be considered in deciding if two populations of fish are the same species or different. If their pattern of chromosomes, the size of certain chromosomes or the number of chromosomes are different, they are likely different species. DNA differences (in the portions of the DNA which vary from species to species) can indicate different species. Geographic separation also can indicate that different fishes are different species. (An interesting side-line here is that the presence or absence of related fresh water fishes can be used to help trace the ballet of Continental drifting.)

For instance: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6WNH-456JS6R-37&_user=10&_rdoc 1&_fmt&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVer sion=0&_userid=10&md5=45c71ea0f04adfa1e684e6e41e2dda44

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0039-7989%28198412%2933%3A4%3C428%3AFFABOC%3E2.0.CO%3B2-H&size= LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage

By the way, even though Innes sorted through a lot of imported livebearers, he didn't list any of the common names as a Black-Barred livebearer. ;)

(A black-barred livebearer is like having a gray Gambusia, a silver minnow or a blue killie.)

Several of the scientific and popular names do remain the same though. Innes' merry widow, Phallichthys amates, still goes by both of those names.

Sometime, I'm going to take a couple of days and make lists of all of the killies mentioned in certain old books. (There are several recent killie books and sites of use in reliably checking that stuff out.) Then we'll list what those fish are called today, for the benefit of hobbyists who are quite rightfully confused and bewildered by some of the name changes. I've got a couple of sites in mind where those could be posted to, so other aquarists could benefit from a few explanations and so that still others may correct my mistakes and the inevitable changes which will arise in the literature.

Livebearers, especially among the Poeciliids, are in such flux right now, that I'm pretty sure that some other hobbyist should do the pages on them. :)

[ Parent ]



Re: That is a pretty useful book. But what do they (none / 0) (#4)
by josh117 on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 07:31:47 PM PST

I see, well when i find the book again i will post the scientific name and  I will search it in google, but thanks

[ Parent ]


Quintana atrizona -- Barred Topminnow (none / 0) (#13)
by unclescott on Wed Apr 30, 2008 at 08:40:56 AM PST

Would this be the one you were thinking about? From Cuba, it is more difficult to find in the hobby than many wild livebearers. That has a lot to do with political conditions but also it is simply not as striking in pattern and color as several other barred wild livebearers such as Limia melanogaster, several other Limias, the rather plain Carlhubbsia stuarti (also called the barred livebearer) or Neoheterandria tridentiger which seemed pretty popular at an ALA event a couple of years ago. Do an image search of these if you'd like.

I was rather surprised that the authors of that 500 fishes book selected that species, though it is neat to see species new to most aquarists in the general books. That is one of lots and lots of Cuban livebearers. If there is ever a thaw in diplomatic relations between the US and Cuba, more of those livebearers may trickle into the hobby.

They like warmth (24-28 C/ 75-82.5 F) and are found in fairly hard water (9-12 DH.  It has been suggested that they share characteristics and probably habitat with members of Girardinus. One can imagine that feeding a livebearer mix, including veggie flakes and (I would guess) the supplemental meaty item, would serve them very well. With the occasional partial water change, there is no reason why any modestly experienced aquarist couldn't keep and breed them or any of many wild livebearers. Keeping fancy guppies, with their fancy fins and the need to maintain strains, is probably a much greater challenge.

[ Parent ]



Thanks. I apologize for not just asking for the (none / 0) (#5)
by unclescott on Wed Mar 26, 2008 at 11:37:31 AM PST

scientific name. Usually with both that and the popular name(s) we can get a good idea of what is being talked about.

What state or province or country do you live in?

All the best!

[ Parent ]



Re: Thanks. I apologize for not just asking for th (none / 0) (#6)
by josh117 on Fri Mar 28, 2008 at 06:45:30 PM PST

texas why?

[ Parent ]


TEXAS! That is where the biggest livebearer (none / 0) (#7)
by unclescott on Sat Mar 29, 2008 at 02:23:02 AM PST

event in the country for this year is taking place!

http://www.ala2008.info/

See also the latest TFH magazine (May, 2008) where they again have the program for the ALA (American Livebearer Convention). It begins Thursday May first and continues over the weekend. There will be no event in the country where one would have more opportunities to buy wild type livebearers (what ever their names happen to be.)

I've already committed to, registered for and paid my registration-banquet-t-shirt money to the AKA national convention in Syracuse. Personally there seems to be a pattern (taking into consideration time, discretionary cash and transportation) for only one national convention a year. So I'm committed, though another may work in later.

Texas is also the home to a fall NANFA convention in the Athens area (east of Dallas). A lot of that will work out of the Texas Freshwater Fisheries Center, which we visited about a year and a half ago.

I realize that one could stuff several Illinois into Texas and probably have room left over for New England. You may not be close to San Antonio for that ALA thing, but the opportunities to collect in a local stream, visit the Xiphophorus research center and shop at Goliad Farms (tropical fish) hatchery plus the room sales, auction and seminars of the ALA are all golden opportunities to learn about livebearers and (money and time permitting) to stock SEVERAL fishrooms.

Please check out that site. I'd wax more serendipitous but I've been up since 4 AM the last three days packing stuff and shuffling papers, trying to finish the importing of a box of fish from Netherlands for a 50th anniversary CKA show in Chicagoland. (Slept in to 4:20 a few minutes ago.) And I've still got stuff to bottle for a live foods table, auction items to bag and show entries to catch.

More later. And what is that species you were talking about? :) Betcha it will be available at San Antonio!

[ Parent ]



Re: TEXAS! That is where the biggest livebearer (none / 0) (#8)
by josh117 on Mon Mar 31, 2008 at 02:19:18 PM PST

i live too far away from athens and san antonio

[ Parent ]


Me too. But wouldn't it be nice. (none / 0) (#9)
by unclescott on Tue Apr 01, 2008 at 06:15:03 AM PST

What was the livebearer you were so taken with? Does Limia nigrofaciata (meaning black lined, black faceted...) seem likely? Copy and paste that into Google and do an image search.

They come from the island of Hispaniola, more specifically the country of Haiti. There are an amazing number of livebearers there, including quite a crowd of Limia. There is some danger to their survival because of poor agricultural practices in the highlands which pollute and silt the streams. Introduced cichlids do not help.

Limia need heat (78-80 F or a little more - increase feedings then) and some veggies in their diet. If kept cooler, they will not drop fry but will waste away. They are active and a delight to watch. While they are pretty tolerant of fry, up to a certain population density, make sure you have some growing up. Some will live two years, but I've noticed they often are fairly short-lived.

This species is also called the humpbacked Limia. As males get older, they become less streamlined and develop quite a hump on their back. Probably some sort of dominance thing.

Also, despite the fact that there are so many Limia on Hispaniola, they will hybridize (at least in the first few generations) with other Limia from that island and also from Jamaica and Cuba (most of the Greater Antilles.) Research with both cichlids and livebearers of the Poeciliid group suggest that they have affinities with cichlids and livebearers (livebearer to livebearer of course) and very probably killies (Rivulus) in Central America. This is another example of how continental drift may explain the distribution of fishes.

There is a group of smaller Caribbean islands to the east called the Lesser Antilles which progress north from South American. There is evidence for a different radiation of freshwater fishes from SA in that case.

Limia are great aquarium fish and they put up with quite a bit of neglect, but given space and/or water changes will do very well. I have had a female Limia melanogaster (black bellied Limia) in one of my infamous gallon jars of emerald green greenwater. (At least once a week, half of the greenwater is poured through a fine meshed net into a Daphnia culture and replaced with warm, treated, seasoned water.) She has thrived on a diet of over half veggie flakes, some regular flakes and the rare meaty item and is dropping fry every month. I'm separating them out but because the fish room temperatures are mid-70s, am getting only females. As the temperature rises (assuming she doesn't run out of batches) males should begin to appear.

Want a bunch of virgin females? ;)

[ Parent ]



Re: Me too. But wouldn't it be nice. (none / 0) (#11)
by josh117 on Sat Apr 05, 2008 at 02:13:22 PM PST

Wow that not what I was looking for exactly but I about 5 months ago I was looking for limia, but yeah  thats cool, is there anything that limia could probably crossbreed with, im trying to take a picture of the molly, guppy cross breed I have but it is too jiddery and swimms too fast, it is also a male but its anal fin looks exactly like a females, the only way you can tell is if you see him trying to breed. I had about 200 sunset platiesorn and im down to 3 little ones :( but at least I still have all of my baby neon swordtails.

[ Parent ]


You piked my curiosity again. If your male (none / 0) (#12)
by unclescott on Sun Apr 06, 2008 at 08:20:54 PM PST

doesn't have an obvious gonopodium, like the guppies and other Poeciliids, could it be a member of the Goodieds? They have a different looking anal fin. It is almost rounded and has a couple of  fin rays which are notched. These carry the sperm to the female. They must mate after every batch of fry is born. The female can not carry sperm from previous matings like the guppies, et al.

http://home.clara.net/brachydibble/Atn_toweri.htm

That Fish Ark Mexico is a useful site. http://www.goodeids.com/ might be also. I wonder if you would recognize you male from among their images.

For a further discussion of differences, go here:
http://www.livingfish.co.uk/livebearers/whatlive.htm

The Asian half-beaks are from a third family (sometimes sub family) of livebearers. The Central American Anableps (four-eyes and the South American Jenynsia  (the one sided livebearer, but they seem to be able to mate from both sides anyway) are a fourth family of livebearing aquarium fishes.

There are also many other species of livebearing fishes (including sharks, rays. California surf perches and the venerable Coelacanth. There are also fish "on the road" from being internal fertilizers of eggs which are later laid to being full time livebearers. There are even levels of nourishment given to the embryos carried by livebearers! Estimates vary wildly, in part because some counters limit themselves to potential aquarium fish when they define livebearer, but there may be over 1,000 livebearing fishes. That is not a huge percentage of the 28,000 - 30,000 fishes described, but the influence some of them have had and have on the aquarium hobby is huge. :)

For a little bit more on different livebearers see...
http://web.archive.org/web/20040117182224/www.guppylog.com/story/2003/11/11/203510/74

And let us know if you have just a young Poeciliid or a Goodied. Thanks!


[ Parent ]



Rare livebearers | 12 comments (12 topical, 0 hidden)
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