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Hybrid of Guppy and Platty?

Breeding
By ashleydaha 12
from the Breeding department, Section Diaries
Posted on Wed Jan 02, 2008 at 06:27:35 PM PST
I think maybe a hybrid Platty and Guppy would be neat...



I might try it. Any opinions out there? I think it'd be neat, bigger than a normal sized guppy, and maybe I can even make the females have long tails and colorful too. (Although I probobly could do that without crossing.) Hmmmm, just an idea to ponder. What sized tank would they need? Any quesses? Please your opions are what I want! I can handle criticism. (I know I'm a horrid speller.)
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Hybrid of Guppy and Platty? | 10 comments (10 topical, 0 hidden)
Re: Hybrid of Guppy and Platty? (none / 0) (#8)
by edathome1982 on Sat Jan 12, 2008 at 03:49:21 PM PST

Hi there Ashley. yes the fish will mate and yes will probably look nice! but cross breeding does have some consequence. firstly if you get a hybrid then life will be considerably shorter and also they would be infertile! so you would have a fish or a dozen that would live months and not be able to reproduce!! but if thats what you want then go ahead! IMO if they were to do it naturally then so be it! but i wouldn't encourage it!!
When lightning strikes the ocean why don't all the fish die?


Re: Hybrid of Guppy and Platty? (none / 0) (#9)
by unclescott on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 02:37:53 PM PST

I don't think Ashley meant to create this to-do about crosses. :)

But, unqualified as I am (my degrees are in history not biology or genetics) I would like to address a couple of speculations put forward by edathome and someone else on another one of these hybrid threads. If a reader of this has
more experience or training in these areas, please feel free to jump in. I would and others certainly would value your insights.

Part of our problem is that the word hybrid is used in a couple of ways. The following is something I just Googled. I added the numbers before the definitions. Nothing else was changed.

http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Hybrid

Hybrid
(Science: biology) 1. An offspring of parents from different species or sub-species. 2. An organism that is the offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock; especially offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties or breeds or 3. species; a mule is a cross between a horse and a donkey. Produced by crossbreeding.The creation of offspring from two genetically dissimilar parents. 4. Two organisms are crossed with different desirable characteristics with the premise that the offspring will possess more of the desirable characteristics. See dominance and selective Breeding for related information.

Definition 1 and 3 refer to trying to cross breed two different species. 2 and 4 refer to crosses within a species. For example two dogs, perhaps a collie and a Labrador retriever are breed to one another. You may have driven past a corn field which had a sign talking about hybrid corn. Again these are where two or more strains of corn or maize or scientifically Zea mays were crossed.

An amazing number of viable crosses between very closely related species have happened in nature. Maybe even more have taken place in captivity - in aquariums or in controlled experiments in laboratories. In the discussions considering guppy x platy and guppy x Gambusia (either affinis or holbrooki) I have suggested that those who have studied livebearers would suggest that those species are not closely related and weren't likely to have effectively crossed, even though males might have courted and pursued females of the other species.

On the other hand, one or the other of those Gambusia species above were unfortunately introduced into waters in Texas containing Gambusia amistadensis. There were some crosses. Fry were devoured. That species is now considered extinct.

Introduction of those first two Gambusia and other exotics have about driven the Big Bend gambusia, Gambusia gaigei nearly to extinction. It exists in one pool.

Likewise, despite some lack of success, various Xiphophorus species have been crossed in the laboratory. The thoughtless dumping of platys (X. maculatus) in northern Mexico have resulted in the extinction of one of the genus, I think it was Xiphophorus couchianus. Where wild species overlap in territory, despite a few crosses, different habitats, different courting displays and perhaps genetic have kept the species (so far as we know) going. When people start stirring species together, species begin going extinct. And that of course is only forever. :(

Alleles are the different genes on a chromosome. They are usually paired. If the two genes are appropriate for the species but a little different from one another, they are spoken of as heterozygous. A certain amount of heterozygousity or genetic diversity may be beneficial to a species. Just the right new combinations may produce a trait which makes the organism fitter or more likely to survive.

http://www.biology-online.org/dictionary/Allele
Allele

(Science: genetics) Any one of a series of two or more different genes that occupy the same position (locus) on a chromosome.

Since autosomal chromosomes (chromosomes with genes which do the same things) are paired, each autosomal locus is represented twice. If both chromosomes have the same allele, occupying the same locus, the condition is referred to as homozygous for this allele.

If the alleles at the two loci are different, the individual or cell is referred to as heterozygous for both alleles. One of two alternate forms of a gene that can have the same locus on homologous chromosomes and are responsible for alternative traits; some alleles are dominant over others. Pertaining to the dna expression of a gene in a chromosome for a particular characteristic.

I think it was Noboru Iwasaki, in his book Guppies: Fancy Strains and How to Produce Them (TFH 1989) who noted that there had been a little genetic drift in that, under magnification, he felt that the shape of the gonopodiums in European raised domestic guppies was a little different from those on Asian raised guppies. But it didn't keep them from interbreeding. There were some alleles which were becoming a bit different.

Biologists have noticed that individuals of a species from two locations, geographically quite far apart, may not be quite as fertile as individuals from closer habitats.

That is interesting because biologists have been very anxious for some species if their genetic diversity is very limited. They see a genetic roadblock as the possible end for some species - the Cheetah for instance. And yet some small populations of endangered fishes has endured for a long time with just a few hundred individuals and maybe less than 100 breeding age adults at any one time. (One of the more celebrated cases is that of the Death Valley's Devil's Hole pupfish (Cyprinodon diabolis), which may have been isolated in that kind of population, living connected to a geothermal (92 °F), aquifer-fed pool and feeding from an algae shelf not much bigger than your living room for 10,000 years.)

If the commons and fancies were different species, then indeed I would expect infertility and possibly a shorter lifespan. That isn't the fault of our commentators but of the confusion over what a hybrid is.

The level of fertility is an interesting issue. It may be that a large common guppy could only drop 30-40 fry. The larger fancy females might drop twice that. Each guppy in the cross would have alleles from the common and fancy parents. Would their size be large or small? If one of those is the case, that gene was dominant. If the size of the guppy offspring was in between that of the parents, one could speak of incomplete dominance. That happens quite a bit. I would guess that whatever number of ripe eggs are carried by a female, almost all of them would be fertilized though since both parents are the same species.

The question of life expectancy was also raised. The guppies are the same species (Poecilia reticulatus, though at one time it was Lebistes reticulatus. The genus was changed as the result of research several decades ago. With more data, some scientists want to return guppies to  Lebistes reticulatus, though you may start seeing  Lebistes (Poecilia) reticulatus. Whatever they are scientifically called, they are the same species.

It could be that the common guppies have a life expectancy of under a year. The fancies might have an average life expectancy of a year and a half. If that is controlled by a specific allele, it would be interesting to see what would happen.

They also speak of hybrid vigor in crosses, especially those within a species. You might be familiar with dogs where a cross is often better behaved, less hyper, healthier and longer lived that the parent species. Though it wouldn't have been fertile, I was astonished by a killifish cross (Fundulopanchax walkeri x Fundulopanchax gardneri) where the male was larger than males from either species and since he combined the male coloration carried by both species, more colorful.

So it would be interesting to see which of the parent strains the offspring favored. My guess is that they would be intermediate between them and incomplete dominance seem to rule that situation. I have seen that with crossed strains. Does that mean that is what would happen this time. Time would tell. We'd have to see.

Will the offspring all look alike? Not likely, especially since the wild strains are so variable. But there would be a lot of them. :)

[ Parent ]



Ahhhhh! When referring to dogs I used (none / 0) (#10)
by unclescott on Sun Jan 13, 2008 at 02:43:32 PM PST

parent species. Of course that should be parent strain or breed. Sorry...

[ Parent ]


I found it after searching, Ive seen it before but (none / 0) (#3)
by MollieGuppy on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 07:48:50 AM PST

lost it. Running the risk of various ethical implications, Here's a site about artificial insemination in livebearers.

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/breeding/hennig_insemination.html



Re: I found it after searching, Ive seen it before (none / 0) (#6)
by MollieGuppy on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 03:58:05 PM PST

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/breeding/hennig_insemination.html

[ Parent ]


Interesting summary of that article. Wonder if (none / 0) (#5)
by unclescott on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 02:34:48 PM PST

that TFH is around the house. I think TFH is preparing an on-line article archive which will be accessible by current TFH subscribers.

Thank you for the referance. That article site, by the way, was put together by a guy who died too soon. BUT he endowed it so that they would continue to collect club pub articles and would continue to offer them on the Net. That is a great collection.

Glenn Takeshita, for his part, has produced several great articles over the years. He and his friends in the Honolulu Aquarium Society (and there are other great aquarists on the islands) have really been among the shakers and movers with their livebearer work.

By the way, MollieGuppy, for those sinfully lazy people like me, would you please select Auto Format from the box (below) which also offers a choice of Plain Text or HTML Formatted. That way any URLs, which are pasted into an article, become live links.

Tanks! :)

[ Parent ]



A guppy /platy cross would be interesting. (none / 0) (#1)
by unclescott on Thu Jan 03, 2008 at 10:10:05 PM PST

And your curiosity is to be applauded.

If you Google search Guppylog, you will see that that question has been raised here quite often. So you are in good company. :)

However you will also also find a lot of reference to that question. In 100 years in the hobby, to my knowledge (obviously limited), that cross hasn't happened. Guppies and platys are pretty good tank mates (so are Corys and guppies) but that doesn't mean a cross will happen. :)

Most of the livebearers we keep in the aquarium hobby are members of the family Poecilidae. The Poeciliid species are distinguished partly on the shape of the male organ, the gonopodium. (DNA analysis is also a hot topic now. We should hear about the Poeciliids soon.)

The Guppy gonopodium is designed to fit only the genital pore of the female guppies. Their opening is designed to fit the gonopodiums of male guppies. Platys are designed to fit platys.

Though it is not the whole story, one significant factor separating Poeciliid species is that they are "reproductively isolated." They can not interbreed with each other. In aquariums, there are a disconcerting number of crosses of closely related fish species which would not otherwise encounter each other in the wild (and therefore never needed to be reproductively isolated). But usually these are between fairly closely related species.

Even the closely relate swordtails and platys rarely if ever interbreed in the wild. Even in the same river systems, adults of their species live in different habitats and females respond to different courting behaviors.

Going back to the 1930s, researchers like Dr. Myron Gordon, tried to cross different members of the genus Xiphophorus and although some of the crosses were difficult, in time the platy (X. maculatus) was crossed with the swordtail (X. variatus) and the variatus (X. variatus).

I was surprised to read that not all crossings were successful. Initially they were very difficult. Sometimes the eggs were not fertilized. Sometimes the embryos died - often of cancer. Indeed scientists learned that if certain strains were crossed, adult fish would be the result, but they would quite consistently develop cancers. And that was what that whole operation was about, trying to understand about various cancers so that some day cures could be developed.

Not surprisingly, researchers have suggested that the gonopodiums (gonopodia?) of the different (30 or so) Xiphophorus species are different one from another, but more alike than they are to other 270 Poeciliids.

Guppies and mollies are more closely related (though how close is being challenged). Once in a great while (every 100,000? million? billion?) matings a cross is produced.

That also can happen with a horse and donkey. A mule, which is sterile, is produced.

In laboratory controlled experiments with killifishes, many crosses don't take place or die in the embryo. Among the crosses that have been realized, again many are sterile or mules.

Josh (see his Gambusia and guppies down the page) has been considering crosses from about a year. Recently he considered crossing hobby strains of mollies, something which is quite possible. Then he drops the do-able crosses and keeps wanting to cross much less closely relate fish. I know that I must sound like a grinch, suggesting that he might be more successful crossing a cat and a horse.

The idea of developing a new or better strain of a fish is very attractive to many aquarists. In controlled experiments, I have no problem with attempting to cross species to see if it can be done. For most of us around home it is a huge waste of time and money.

If we want to improve upon certain fish, see how much bigger your deltatail guppies can be. See how straight the lines of a deltatail can be. See how bright and vibrant the colors of a platy strain can be. There are literally hundreds of hobby strains of guppies and other hobby livebearers. Some are difficult enough to reproduce and grow up as spectacular as their parents. Do a Google image search for platys and guppies. Look for what you might like to keep and breed. Look to see what over generations you could even improve.

There are so many thing you can do with fish. Who knows, maybe in a laboratory an artificial insemination of a cross will work. Maybe not. But those are sometimes nearly impossible to do at home. :)

 



Re: A guppy /platy cross would be interesting. (none / 0) (#2)
by ashleydaha 12 on Fri Jan 04, 2008 at 08:27:09 PM PST

Yeah, that's something I've never really thought that far ino, but thatnks so much for the info. Now I will actually start to think about that more often. (Seeing how none of that EVER crossed my mind.) :)
I'll be sure to do the google image rate after this is posted!

[ Parent ]


Googling a guppy /platy cross is a terrific idea! (none / 0) (#4)
by unclescott on Sat Jan 05, 2008 at 01:50:16 PM PST

I don't know whether you will find anything or not.

Google tends to include all of the images in an article, so you may find some woman's or man's photo when Googling for "blue deltatail guppy".

I don't think that this is the one I was looking for, but I ran across these while looking for a search site that gave very specific images of fish. Maybe one of these would be useful:

http://www.ixquick.com/
http://www.ask.com/?qsrc=119&o=0&l=dir
http://www.alltheweb.com/?cat=img
http://www.search-22.com/downloads/images.php
http://www.picsearch.com/

If anyone reading along finds another useful or even better image search, please share it.

[ Parent ]



Just for fun, would that be a pluppy or a (none / 0) (#7)
by unclescott on Sun Jan 06, 2008 at 05:12:04 PM PST

gulatty?

[ Parent ]


Hybrid of Guppy and Platty? | 10 comments (10 topical, 0 hidden)
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