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Front Page · Everything · News · Ask Guppylog · Diaries
Broad Spectrum Medication

Health and Medicine
By G ma, Section Diaries
Posted on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 12:38:11 PM PST
Tags: (all tags)
I hope this works as I've had the same problems other have been having with accessing this website.



At any rate, I have my guppies divided into tanks as follows: the males in a tank by themselves (10 gal),the females by themselves with any newly dropped fry (20 gal), a fry tank (10 gal)and various others in 2.5 gal tanks.

I have been having a problem with the male tank. They seemed to be rubbing their bellies on the gravel, just a flick - nothing for an extended period of time. None looked sick and I was doing 50% water changes every week. I was beginning to think they were masturbating, if that is even possible among male fish.

But then I was finally able to get into GL and look at the IH files. I think now they were probably flashing.

Tuesday I found my beautiful all-red Delta male dead sucked up against the filter intake tube. I was devastated. I had previously lost one of his girlfriends and had reordered from the same breeder. Now his second girlfriend has disappeared! She was the only occupant in a 2.5 gal tank as she was showing a very large gravid spot. When I went to feed her yesterday morning she was nowhere to be seen. I tore that tank apart looking for her or even her carcass would have been acceptable. But now I'm at a lose for what happened to her. My daughter said she was one of the "4400."

Now I think I want to treat the male tank with some medication. The IH files seemed to indicate the problem might be flukes and that a broad spectrum medication is called for.

But what would be the names of some of these broad spectrum medications?

Thanks for the help,

G ma

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Broad Spectrum Medication | 6 comments (6 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: Broad Spectrum Medication (none / 0) (#1)
by The Q man on Thu Aug 09, 2007 at 08:54:50 AM PST

I doubt that they are masterbating, but it is possible as whales and dolphins like to rub up agianst rocks. The first thing that came to my mind was ich.

Symptoms:
Small white spots resembling sand

Fish scratch against rocks and gravel

In advanced stages fish become lethargic

Redness or bloody streaks in advanced stages

Treatment:
Raise water temperature

Medicate for 10-14 days

Reduce medication when treating scaleless fish

Discontinue carbon filtration during treatment

Perform water changes between treatments

And of course prevention.

Prevention:
Quarantine new fish for two weeks

Treat plants before adding to tank

Maintain high water quality

Provide fish with a nutritionally balanced diet

GOOD LUCK!!! :)



Re: Broad Spectrum Medication (none / 0) (#2)
by G ma on Thu Aug 09, 2007 at 09:40:20 AM PST

Hi Q Man

I immediately thought of Ick as well. Let's talk about prevention for a minute.

The tank has NO plants, not even plastic ones. All fish brought in from outside of my tanks are quarantined for at least two weeks. The majority of the fish in my tanks are bred, born, and raised here.

Food quality: They get live brine shrimp three times a week. Flake food is a combination of beefheart flakes, Spirulina flakes, color flakes, and egg flakes. They are then mixed at about 1:1:1:1 and broken down (crushed) somewhat because I feed all my fish-from fry to adults-the same thing.

Water quality: All tanks with gravel get a 50% water change and vacuum once a week. One tank is bare-bottomed so that I can see what's going on in there better. That tank, a 2.5 gal, gets vacuumed and water change every other day. Two other tanks, also 2.5 gal, are used as quarantine tanks/birthing tanks. They have gravel and the birthing tank has a few floating plants for newly-born fry protection. They get water changes about every third day.

All water is purchased and is either Spring water or Well water. It has no chlorine, ammonia, or anything else of that nature in it. I use Cycle to keep the biological cycle going.

I have discontinued using activated carbon in my over-the-back filters as all of the advertisements seem to indicate its primary purpose is to keep the water clear. I am using Fluval foam to remove particulate matter in the water, if any.

I am currently using Ick Clear and doing 25% water changes before adding each day's treatment. I will be adding carbon to the filter to remove the medication when I'm done with their treatment.

Everything in that tank looks good right now and they seem to be doing less flashing than they had been.

I even segregate and quarantine fish I am planning to take to the LFS for store credit. I don't want to be the cause of their having an outbreak of some disease. Of course, for all I know they are using them for feeder guppies.

Since the male tank has a Green Moscow, purchased directly from the breeder, I don't want to lose him like I did the all-red Delta.

The only non-home raised male is a HB blue that I purchased at the LFS and quarantined before introducing him to the general male tank.

Thanks for the advise,

G ma

[ Parent ]



Before doing more treatment, keep up the (none / 0) (#5)
by unclescott on Thu Aug 09, 2007 at 11:07:31 AM PST

increased partial water changes. While the scratching could be flukes, my money (because I use more small tanks than I should) is on your problem being too many organic wastes in the tank. Even if your nitrogen cycle was doing fine, I'd bet lunch (next time I'm in VA) that, with your generous feeding regime, there are more nitrates in there than you realized.

Little tanks are just a lot harder to keep balanced than larger ones. They may need even more partial water changes. (Do as I say, not ...) ;)

I recently set up a couple of small batches of killie fry in small "turtle bowls." Soon the larger fry was exiled to his own 1-gallon wide-mouthed pickle jar. All of the fry containers were set up with water from established  tanks and left in a well lighted area. This allowed me to squirt newly hatched mosquito larvae in there and monitor when they were all eaten. I have also been adding a little flake dust.

WOW! Not only did those small containers turn bright green (Happy St. Patrick's Day!) but they developed a slimy algae which is forming colonies in the bowls and a skim on the surface. Never had that combo before! Before feeding, I have to squirt holes in the top film or lay some b&w newspaper on the surface to draw that stuff off. (And before tossing it, I look for fry stuck to the newsprint!)

I don't think that includes Cyanobacteria (blue-green slime) but I have never had such a rich culture of organic "stuff" bloom like that. I have been lucky though because mother nature has found the means to absorb the waste material while  shouting at me, "Scott you idiot! Give them proper habitats!"

Treating for Ich may not hurt, though some Ich treatments have an antibiotic in them and that could trash your nitrogen cycle. If you shine a flashlight on the guppies and don't see white spots, don't stress the fish with a treatment they do not need.

If you shine the light on them and there are really, really tiny spots, gray to gold and looking like a sheen, that might be velvet. That does sometimes accompany the feeding of b.s. But it is more likely with guppy fry or with several other species of fish (killies, rainbows, bristlenose "plecos", Bettas, gouramis...). If there were fry in the tank and they "mysteriously disappeared" and then the adults began to clamp a little, that is a prime set of reasons to look for velvet.

If you do partial water changes three times a week and have viable, little filters in there like a sponge or box filter, the scratching should go away. If it doesn't and you wish to treat for parasites, try one of the mixes like Jungle's treatment for internal parasites which should also deal with external ones.

It probably has Praziquantel in it and that will help. (I applaud them for now listing contents.) It will also have an antibiotic or two in there. That may clobber your nitrogen cycle. Feed sparingly. Maybe do a 100% water change from a healthy tank and re-treat, (I'm sooooo good at spending other people's money!) Leave an airstone in each afflicted tank.

Of course don't use your siphon or bucket or other equipment (hands?) used there with other tanks until you know if the problem is just nitrogenous stuff. They (the siphon tubes) could be left out in the summer sun and then into in a salt solution. (See below.)

In the meantime cleanse your filters and airlines. A 1-10 part  bleach to water solution will work (outside in the shade, maybe in a covered bucket) for the plastic, Or do a day's soak in a hyper-saline solution for the box or sponge filters. (Sponges will be quickly destroyed by bleach.) Since roughly a cup (16oz) of salt per gallon will give you a marine mix, maybe slightly heap that cup with salt. :)

Then rinse and get those filters going in your established tank so that they are bacteria laden when they are needed in the small tanks. At the end of treatment do a 100% water change. Either fill the re-establish tank up with water from another tank or do a 60-40% (old, new) water mix.

You mentioned using activated carbon again. I think you know this, but for someone looking on, the activated carbon is usually used up within a week. When put in distressed tank, it is probably maxed out even sooner and should be removed before doing a partial water change. It will absorb ammonia and medications while it still has the capacity to do so. I think your depending upon biological filtering and partial water change during "usual" conditions is wise and probably gives you a better bang for the buck.

I wonder if using activated carbon, Ammoniasorb or Polyfilter to remove waste material in an emergency has any effect upon the beneficial bacteria. If someone enjoys fiddling with test kits, would you please test a tank after it has been filtered with a serious ammonia absorbing resin? I wonder if after the activated carbon or whatever has been removed if there wouldn't be an ammonia spike of some sort because some of the beneficial bacteria has starved.

Of course, one could pack the tank with plants. I have a bucket of Salvinia natans, which the schnoodle and I clean last night. (He supervised, I turned the floating plants upside down in water, while feeding the adult mosquitoes, so as to float most duckweed out of their root mass.) Outdoor plants sometimes shock because of the more modest lighting indoors. We'll see...

I'm glad to see you again on GL G ma. I am sorry about the circumstances.

You are not alone in struggling to get on Guppylog. hat stinking
Internal Server Error message
is driving me crazy too. Sometimes arrowing back and trying again works. I've also hit the refresh button at the top of the browser page and often that works.

My computer's C drive is close to needing to be reformated. I just don't want to go to the trouble right now of reloading Windows XP. As a quick fix, I get off line and run a maintenance program (system mechanic version 6, soon to be 7). Rebooting the computer and getting back on-line helps some.

The site's server is getting old. Scott Lockwood is doing what he can/ He has been quick, when asked, to tweak it again. I don't have the money (or the need) to hire a site from him and increase his cash flow. :(

Maybe if we all click on his advertisers more. ;)

By the way, I had just finished whining about northern Illinois' heat and humidity in response to the diary before yours and then, there you are, from Virgina. I can just hear you, "Midwestern Wimps!" ;)

By the way, if a tank has a really efficient population of beneficial bacteria can really break down a dead guppy quickly. And even though our home is relative bug free, some bodies I'm sure have been scavenged by wandering crickets after lights out. (And then there are dogs and cats...)

Hope to see you on GL again with the successful story of how your gups have stopped scratching. Please keep trying if there is trouble getting through.

Gotta go. And you can bet that lots of water changes are on my "do list".

All the best!

[ Parent ]



Slightly off-topic and back again (none / 0) (#6)
by G ma on Fri Aug 10, 2007 at 03:58:30 AM PST

U.S.

I am a transplanted "Midwestern Wimp." Born and raised in west central Indiana. Have lived in south Texas, Maryland, Kentucky, Pennsylvania, and Germany before moving to southeastern Virginia.

It has been unusually hot and dry around here this summer. But the first time I came here I found daffodils blooming on Valentine's Day. As close to heaven as I may ever get.

Back on topic: I do have a red Delta female that is huge. When I asked the breeder how old she was his reply was 5 months give or take. Said that this particular strain gets to be quite big at maturity and very prolific. He usually ships fish that are about 2 1/2 to 3 months old.

I've gotten kind of lazy about testing because the regimen I have been following has kept my tanks in good shape for the last 3-4 months. I'll check them today since the daughter and I will both be driving to LFS for water this afternoon.

I'll keep you posted.

G ma

[ Parent ]



Re: Broad Spectrum Medication (none / 0) (#3)
by The Q man on Thu Aug 09, 2007 at 10:05:50 AM PST

Oh, well you sure told me. ;)

[ Parent ]


Re: Broad Spectrum Medication (none / 0) (#4)
by G ma on Thu Aug 09, 2007 at 10:56:14 AM PST

QMan,

My reply was not meant as a put-down on your advice. You offered excellent advice, but I had already thought of it.

When I checked IH there was more than one reference to a broad spectrum medication but no names or ingredients were mentioned.

I have spent more than a few dollars on my equipment and fish only to have them die on me before they even dropped their first fry. For that reason I haven't been buying fish from the LFS.

When I bought the HB blue I just couldn't resist as I've always wanted one and so bought a pair. The female had a darker blue tail. She died in the second week of quarantine and I replaced her with another HB blue female-this one has a lighter blue tail. Her gravid spot is growing nicely and I'm hoping to get a good drop from her.

Several months ago I was able to find a yellow snakeskin pair and I am still raising fry from that pair. One of my favorite offsprings from them is a male that is yellow with silver/white on his sides and a beautifully marked snakeskin tail. When the white on his sides first showed up my immediate reaction was "oh, crap! here we go again." But he has turned out to be a good sire passing along his markings.

A lot of my females are gold-bodied and I am trying to get away from that. Although with little markings on them there is a better chance the characteristics of the males will show up in the fry.

I've noticed that some have elongated bodies and I'm trying to get away from those as well. Concentrating now on gray-bodied females with shorter bodies. I'm also trying to breed for longer dorsal fins than the ones I've seen in the LFS.

I dispose of any with obvious conformation problems as I don't see any reason to perpetuate bad characteristics.

One of my females dropped maybe 10 fry three days ago and I'm waiting to see which one is next. Last month it seemed as though as soon as one dropped then another one would drop as well. I had three females give birth in one week and the next week there were two more. It looks like they're on very similar cycles.

Well, got to go. I have another water change to do. Also I think I have some fry that I can sex so that they can be segregated.

Thanks again,

G ma

[ Parent ]



Broad Spectrum Medication | 6 comments (6 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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