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When fry show development.

Breeding
By mahal5254
from the ... i don't know what this line means.... department, Section Ask Guppylog
Posted on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 12:33:48 PM PST
Tags: (all tags)
Hi all, I've been lurking around this sight gleaning any information, and it's a bit overwhelming. I have a few questions about the development of guppy fry, I'm going to try my best not to ask things that have already been discussed. Thanks so much for your time and expertise. :)



So, my luck, I've had fancy guppies for the better part of a year and in this last week (for the first time) 4 of my female guppies gave birth at the same time.

So here are my specs.:
-1 heated and well planted (fake and live) 10 gallon with three boys and 6 girls.
-Using a 20-gallon penguin filter to make up for the almost overcrowding.
-1 2gallon tank with filter and heater for about 40 fry.

So, I can't bring myself to let the fry be eaten. So I end up sitting forever trying to save each tiny life. I know in my situation I cannot afford (monetarily or space-wise) to get another or larger tank. I don't know what to do with the fry besides pawning them off to friends or maybe selling them to a petshop.

Finally I have two questions:

1)What do you all do with an over abundance of fry? If you sell them how do you know they are going to be treated well, and not used as expensive feeders?

2)Is there any conceivable way to work with the size tanks I have? One person at my local petshop, he really cares for fish and breeds at home, said that I can break the 1 fish per gallon with the filtration I have and the fact that I do not mind doing very frequent water changes.

Thanks so very much for any response (and if you know these questions have been asked, if you could just suggest where I can go look at it). :)

< fin rot tail can't be healed in male guppy | Is it possible that she isn't cannibalistic? >
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When fry show development. | 8 comments (8 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: When fry show development. (none / 0) (#1)
by josh117 on Tue Jul 24, 2007 at 10:15:34 PM PST

ok for #1 half of the fry from each batch will  died most likly and the 2 gallon can probably push 60 fry maybe 80
#2 no water changes use a sponge filter (buy a filter sponge, cut a hole in the top, and put it on the intake of the filter



It is frustrating having so many fry. You must (none / 1) (#2)
by unclescott on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 10:06:43 AM PST

feel like no good deed must go unpunished. I really applaud you for checking out some of the stuff on this and hopefully other sites. That will help you be even better informed and keep us honest. :)

Thank you to for finding what you could before asking questions. There will always be a little redundancy and that's fine. But it is nice not to get asked which is the female and which is the male. ;)

You have thought through the crowding issue and the filtration and your frequent water changes will allow you to stretch the carrying ability of your two tanks. You friend is correct that we can stretch a tank's ability to support fish with almost daily 45-50% partial water changes. (I do this with wild-type livebearers and bright green bowls from which I take as much as 50%/day of the greenwater to feed to Daphnia.)

Indeed, if time, circumstances and interest even get you curious about breeding egg laying fishes (I'm thinking of especially killifish and rainbowfishes, but this also applies to many more) water changes and good water quality will enable you to breed a number of fishes, which are considered "problem fishes" in the books. Many fishes in the tropics don't breed in the dry season - a logical thing because hiding places and food are at a premium. They spawn after the rainy season gets started and the rivers overflow their banks into the flood plains. Essentially (and this can even have hormonal effects) the rainy season is one giant three month water change. :)

The flip side of that is that collectors will begin collecting when the flood waters begin to recede and the YOY (young of the year) have put on some size. In parts of South American that would correspond to our summer/fall or winter/spring for them. By December collecting is easier, though more risky. Fish like piranhas. despite their fearsome reputation will flee people when the waters are high. If they are cornered in a pool or oxbow lake, isolated from the river by drying, they will panic when people enter the pool with a seine net and someone may get seriously bitten, mostly by accident.

In addition to behavioral changes such as panicking and bullying, there is an increase in predation. Unless it is a really rare fish, I'm reluctant to even buy one, obviously wild collected in our late winter or spring, because it is far more likely to be infected with parasites or diseases. As the waters recede, water quality declines even in the wild. At the same time the water quality causes the fishes' immune systems to be compromised. The less effective immune systems can't fight off all of the organisms attacking the fish. In the North American Midwest, fish native to our area suddenly may exhibit an attack by the much feared columnaris because the heat and (with the declining photo cycle) dying algae are limiting the oxygen in the water. When tanks in a whole sale house or in a store aren't up to snuff, it is unfortunately too common to see outbreaks of almost uncurable columnaris in our new purchases. (That is a strong argument for quaranting new fish, so they don't take out everything else in the aquarium.)

So in a sense, conflict, vulnerability to predators and death by various illnesses are a direct result of shrinking habitats and declining water quality. If the population isn't adjusted any other way, epidemics will happen to adjust the population to the water supply. Unfortunately in isolated pools and in some crowded aquariums, the disease cycle happens so suddenly that everything perishes.

I would guess that you can carry about double the fry in the two-gallon tank, so maybe 4-8 can grow up beautiful and full sized with almost daily partial water changes. But fancy guppies do need clean water and some space to develop their finage. I can get away with crowding on wild Limia or Endler's livebearers (maybe Poecilia wingei or maybe just beautiful stains of wild guppies) which would never work with fancy guppies.

We don't like to encourage cannibalism, but an aquarium will reach a certain population density and then guppies which had previously left fry alone will begin eating them or will eat more than preciously. That is almost necessary or else all may die of some "creeping crud" which may have been in the water all along "at a non-lethal level."

Shops, when tank space, rent, pay to employees and utilities are factored in, can not justify raising fry except in the case of a really exceptional guppy or rare fish. Even with the great looking black mollies I swapped one time for a canister of food. I was dismayed to look back and see one being dropped in the ribbon eel tank as I was leaving the store. Baby guppies too, may just end up as feeders.

A pair of wild guppies might produce a couple hundred fry in their lives. If one to three pairs survive to replace them and have fry, that would be considered a success in terms of maintaining the species. We eliminate most of the predators in an aquarium. Then we are stuck with the dilemma of feeding and housing all the fry, letting them get eaten, starving them, practicing euthanasia on the less desirable ones or watching them perish of disease.

I heard a volunteer for an dog shelter interviewed on the radio one time. She was lamenting the practice of letting female dogs go un-neutered so the kids could see the "miracle of birth." Sourly she suggested that maybe they also drop by the dog pound to see "the miracle of death" sometime too. :(

[ Parent ]



Wow, that was a mind full of new information! (none / 0) (#3)
by mahal5254 on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 05:11:14 PM PST

Thanks so much for taking the time to respond, and elaborate! So really, one of the only ways for me to plausibly continue the hobby (without buying more tanks) is to "let nature take its course" when the fry are born? Meaning, which ever survive most probably won't be enough to over crowd my 10 gallon tank?

And to clarify when you said:
"I would guess that you can carry about double the fry in the two-gallon tank, so maybe 4-8 can grow up beautiful and full sized with almost daily partial water changes."

You mean that there can even be around 80 fry in my 2 gallon tank? And (again) nature will take its course so that it eliminates fry until about 4-8 'triumph 'as survivors of the overcrowded tank?

I really wish there was a place where guppy owners could donate their fry and they could swim in a big (for lack of a better word) flock! Wouldn't that be interesting to take a walk in the park and see hundreds of fancy guppies nibbling at the surface of the water.

I know at some point (since I don't have the means nor space to get larger tanks) that I will have to either give the fry as feeders to my dad's larger fish or LPS, or just let the parents eat them. But I have a question: Can eating their fry give the guppies a taste for their own kind, and in turn cause them to actively hunt fry and maybe even be more aggressive or attack the other guppies in the tank?

Thank you so much again for dropping me a line. :)

[ Parent ]



Re: Wow, that was a mind full of new information! (none / 0) (#4)
by josh117 on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 07:07:01 PM PST

i raised 15 sucsessful fry out of 20 in a 5 gallon tank. try getting the prettiest guppies you can just let them go at it. it wont cause the fry to eat thier own, but the females might try the males tails a slight bit but they will get over it just as a warning the older a female gets the bigger the spawn but the more fry she eats.

[ Parent ]


I'm surely sounding pessimistic about the fry (none / 0) (#6)
by unclescott on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 10:00:32 PM PST

in that two-gallon tank. Maybe 4-8 can grow out nicely in that tank and be healthy. I know that experimenters and hatcheries have raised even trout in little tubes - with a constant flow of new stream water. But I fear the possibility of an epidemic with that population density and all fish may be lost in the 2-gallon.

Guppylog has lots of accounts of overcrowded aquariums and the illnesses which resulted. I knew about maybe three fish diseases in any detail before joining Guppylog.

We visited Tablerock Trout Hatchery in Branson, MO a couple of years ago. Their younger trout looked great. But they didn't sufficiently drop the numbers of trout in a "pond" as they got larger and some of them had sores on their bodies and awful cases of mouth fungus. Without taking tissue samples and analyzing them in a lab (by people qualified to do that) one couldn't say definitely that there were a few cases of Fish TB and mouth columnaris, but I sure wondered.

"I really wish there was a place where guppy owners could donate their fry and they could swim in a big (for lack of a better word) flock! Wouldn't that be interesting to take a walk in the park and see hundreds of fancy guppies nibbling at the surface of the water."

That would be really cool. Sigh again! However...

Pretty soon random breeding would shrink the size of their tails and bodies anyway. You really don't want them to just let them go at it any old way. In time that pond would be full of feeder guppies. :(

California is over run with exotics and probably wouldn't allow that other than in a theme park. ;)
And the guppies would get loose yet again.

Florida is warm enough but already has feral guppies and almost everything else.

There are a couple of million unwanted dogs in the US. Maybe there are more unwanted and wild (formerly domestic) cats, though coyotes do what they can. Too often overwhelmed shelters have to put some down.

Terry Fairfield declared that fish (and other pets) are not disposable toys. That means that unless we are breeders with an assured market, our cats, dogs, rabbits and other larger mammals should be neutered. It means that some fish eggs and fry will have to be fish food.

The US has hundreds of thousands of homeless people and even in a remarkably wealthy country there lots of others (throwaway kids, runaway kids, battered women and more) in need of help and not always getting it. Yes there are individuals who could do more for themselves, I sure saw that as a school teacher, but there are a lot of casualties in the sexual revolution, drug revolution and so on.

Maybe if I win the Publisher's sweepstakes... In the meantime I hired a homeless guy to do some odd jobs for me today. He helped himself and I hope that encourages his self confidence.

There is also the question of saving unwanted guppies or trying to preserved dozens of threatened species in the US, not to mentioned in Mexico and throughout the world.

Lots of questions, lots of situations we would like to make better, and not always easy answers.

[ Parent ]



Just to clarify (none / 0) (#5)
by mahal5254 on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 09:26:29 PM PST

what does :

"the older a female gets the bigger the spawn but the more fry she eats."

mean? - You mean they eat more of their own as they get older? Or because there are more babies, more get eaten?

How big were your fry before you transfered them to the group tank? I can't imagine 15 fully grown fish in a 5 gallon, that isn't bad for them?

Thanks for responding! :)

[ Parent ]



Re: Just to clarify (none / 0) (#7)
by josh117 on Thu Jul 26, 2007 at 10:38:12 PM PST

they were fairly smell, they didnt have any color
they were about [____] long maybe a slight bit shorter but they are now getting red and blue colorings, a mix of thier japanese blue father and their blonde tux mother

[ Parent ]


Half inch female guppies (total length, which (none / 0) (#8)
by unclescott on Fri Jul 27, 2007 at 10:15:48 AM PST

includes tails) wouldn't likely be big enough to drop fry. It is true that relatively small females don't drop a lot of fry.

The..."older a female gets the bigger the spawn but the more fry she eats."

Josh that may be true if you are starving the full grown female guppy and were starving her when she was small and dropped her first batch of fry. But if a female guppy is well fed or if you wish, fed to satiation (where she can not eat another live food or defrosted, meaty food item) she will not eat any fry! Size usually doesn't matter in that case.

Even notorious fry eaters (some others were mentioned in response to an earlier thread of yours) will not eat fry if they are stuffed with meaty food. That would include your female common Gambusia.

If you saw a female livebearer in your mixed aquarium really putting away fry, the chances are pretty good that she was a Gambusia. That is why they have backfired as mosquito control fish. Despite the fact that Gambusia do eat mosquito larvae and are popular food fish with slightly larger predators such as pickerel or larger members of the sunfish family, they themselves are voracious fry eaters and it has been asserted that they will eat fry or fish eggs (assuming the can get them in their mouths or pull them apart) before they will eat a lot of mosquito larvae. Odds are that they relish fry of other species even before their own fry.

Once in a while a female guppy will become a pretty dedicated fry eater. Wise and experienced guppy breeders will shy away from using such females as breeders. Some behavioral traits seem to get passed down genetically. It makes sense if one is trying to select for superior characteristics in a certain really attractive guppy strain to also select for those not inclined to eat fry.

Crowding and/or starvation will cause female guppies to eat fry. That is not uncommon among many livebearers. As awful as that sounds, that will happen with other animals too.

At least one Guppylog correspondent wrote that they had a female guppy which seemed to reabsorb its fry. That is possible with females of a number of species if feeding is poor, the fish has a health issue or maybe the environment isn't conducive to having fry survive.

Survival in nature is not always easy and "a state of nature" can be downright grim. It makes cruel sense that adult guppies in a pond eat their fry if it is a time of famine. That way hopefully some breeders (or at least one pregnant female guppy) will be alive to reproduce when conditions bring more food to the pond.

If an aquarist want to save fry, they ought to provide optimum conditions for the birth of those fry, which may also be a little larger than other guppy fry. Additionally they should be healthier.

I remember reading an article about population equilibriums. The author suggested that in a body of water or in an aquarium that a certain balance of adult guppies and fry would be established. If can be demonstrated in a crowded tank (which does get a little closer to that state of nature thing) that there will sometimes be a number of adults and few fry. As the adults die off of old age, the number of fry will increase. The bulk of guppy in the tank (perhaps if you were to pile them all in a net and weight them) might still approach the bulk of the guppies in the tank when there were a lot of adults. I would like to see an actual study showing that.

When we isolate a female, give some hiding places for the expected fry, change water frequently (maybe from her original tank) and feed her very well, we change that equilibrium. For a time in her quarters, there is room for lots of fry. :)

I'm rambling here, I realize. Sorry. Hope something is of use.

All the best!

[ Parent ]



When fry show development. | 8 comments (8 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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