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Water hardness question

Aquaria
By no1likeme1414, Section Diaries
Posted on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 12:55:34 PM PST
Tags: (all tags)
I finally aquired a digital TDS tester.  After calibrating the unit, I found a disturbing difference between the hardness of my tap water and that of my two aquariums' water.



In parts per million, the tap water varies from about 275 PPM (from the cold tap) to about 315 PPM from the water heater.

Both my tanks measured roughly 1640 PPM.  o_O

At first I thought I was using the meter wrong; I even emailed the tech support for the manufacturer.  

I do add aquarium salt (only in the recommended doses, and only in conjunction with water changes), but other than that and water conditioner (Amquel + and stress coat) I add nothing!  

AFAIK, plants and fish in the tank only add organic solids and waste, and the TDS uses conductivity to measure INorganic solids in the water.

And, the strangest of all, I recenly changed about 75% of my 20 gallon tank's water, as I had to move it across the room (the other 25% was between the bucket I had the fish (guppies and mollies) in and in the gravel that could not be removed by the siphon).  

So I am wondering what the heck could be contributing so much TDS to the tanks!  The 10 gallon, which granted is in need of a water change (I am 1 week behind on that one), was the same TDS as the one with virtually new water!

Uncle Scott, I know you're going to go through the roof about the TDS - from things I've read, it seems to indicate that anything above roughly 500 PPM is considered to be "very hard" water - so imagine three times that!

Any thoughts, fellow guppykeepers?

-Mark

ps - everyone in my tanks continues to do well - I wouldn't even have known if it weren't for the nifty little TDS tester I picked up on eBay!

< Poor Momma- | lucky me >
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Water hardness question | 5 comments (5 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: Water hardness question (none / 0) (#2)
by MollieGuppy on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 05:32:31 AM PST

Just an Interesting fact but the average TDS reading for Us water is 280, But it is still accepted at 500 - 1000.

A small fact you may like to know is that your Total Dissolved Solids (Tds) Will Build up in your tank over time and normally a reading of 1 - 1000 is ok for freshwater. However you did mention that your adding freshwater salt which brings your Tds reading up quite a bit Would you count it as brackish where a reading of 1000 - 10,000 Is ok.

Freshwater Tds Reading are not much use really, it can help you keep the quality of the water fairly the same for breeding. so you should say pick a number call it 2000 When you will do a fairly complete water change when it reads that.

TDS measures How conductive the water is so remember The higher the number the bigger the electric shock when your heater breaks ;P.

All the best
MollieGuppy
>}}}'>



Re: Water hardness question (none / 0) (#3)
by MollieGuppy on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 05:38:26 AM PST

Look at this one O O
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         \  /
          /

[ Parent ]


LOL! I've already freaked out over what a TDS (none / 0) (#4)
by unclescott on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 05:54:31 AM PST

meter said about the water - once upon a time. I was running a batch of water through an RO unit and rebuilding it so that it measured 80 PPM hardness or DH. I also had bought my first Hanna TDS meter (from California's Ron Harlan) and measured a trash can of the new "killie water." 80 PPM (or about 4.7 degrees hardness/ DH) measured with a LaMotte test kit, is pretty "soft" water. I know of people who try and spawn mini-Rasbora, chocolate gouramis, Diapteron, certain neon tetra types and the like in water with even less mineral, but I worry about pH plunges if there isn't something in there.

My then 4-6th grade son was hanging out when I dipped that treasured new meter in the water. The subsequent bugged out eyes and aah-ah-ah-AHAHHHHH! rather startled him and he wondered if I was having a seizure! He'd never heard that noise, though there is a chance of it later today when I finish our income taxes.

I responded with relief and laughter when I realized that the TDS included the molecules which made up DH, those which buffered the water (KH), molecules like sodium chloride which measure neither as DH, KH or even have any influence of pH, all organics (the fruit fly which fell in) and probably a lot of other "stuff."

Technically (I am told) those meters really measure electrical conductivity as MollyGuppy also noted, not TDS. But there is a pretty close correlation (at least close enough for the needs of aquarists and orchid growers) and so they are calibrated to show us the approximate PPM of TDS. (And at a certain point in this discussion I will develop a HEAD ACHE.)

So notice that your 1640 PPM is TDS, NOT hardness or DH - which is what we usually talk about when we talk about hard water. If your TDS (and this is playing fast and loose with numbers) was 1/5 of the TDS it would be 328, which indeed is still very hard.

BUT, much of your TDS is salt or sodium chloride. If you look at the various water conditioners, they will promise to add useful electrolytes to the water. A lot of those are plain old sodium chloride! And that is another reason why I'm cautious about adding more salt to an aquarium.

In fact, if a person has a basement "water softener" and include some hot water in the mix , they are also adding a lot of sodium. In those "softeners" for every molecule of calcium or magnesium taken out, TWO molecules of sodium chloride are exchanged! You noted the increased TDS from the warm water.

You will get "better" fish water drawing from the cold tap. But you will have to let it sit longer to shed CO2 and free nitrogen, warm up and season.

If your tank's water, after a week, is pretty much the same TDS as the changing water, then you are doing a darn good job of keeping up with water changes, carefully feeding and removing debris (plant pieces, etc.) from that aquarium! (I.E. you're a better man than I am, again.)

Please humor a curmudgeon. Measure the TDS of your changing water before you add a water conditioner. Then measure it with the conditioner in there. Lastly please add the salt and measure the TDS one last time. I know that that the TDS will go up. I'm really curious as to how much. :)

Oh, what of that boy who was watching his chemically disinclined Dad kill himself through stress? Today he and his lovely wife are both out east working on their doctorates in chemistry. It has been years since my lady or I have had the slightest idea what they really do. But we are insufferably proud of them and also of his sister who finishes up a degree this spring.

[ Parent ]



Re: LOL! I've already freaked out over what a TDS (none / 0) (#5)
by no1likeme1414 on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 12:16:43 PM PST

Wow ...  Ask and you shall receive!  Have I told you guys (recently) how much I love you?  :P

IIRC, the whole reason I began adding salt was due to advice from this forum.  :|  I suppose this is a cue to STOP doing this, at least with every water change!

Uncle Scott, I will attempt to try the experiments with the TDS meter in conjunction with the water changes and everything.  This will be somewhat difficult because I use a Python system (which hooks up to the sink to drain and fill), which means that in order to avoid shocking the fish with a sudden temperature change, I add some hot water to equalize the temperature.

I should note that I did in fact check the TDS of the hot water from the hot water heater - it was only about 10 PPM higher than that of the cold tap.

One thing that confuses me a little here is that I thought that sodium chloride (i.e. salt) is not conductive and therefore isn't measured by the TDS meter?  Then again, I really can't think of anything else that could be altering the TDS reading so significantly.  

I guess the Amquel + and stress coat, both of which remove things like nitrAtes and nitrItes, ammonia and chlorine, probably bind to those molecules and form something that could potentially affect this reading.

Again, all the fish have been doing well.  Since I've planted each tank, they have really been humming along - I occasionally have a death here and there, but no mass die-offs.  

I really purchased the TDS meter because I got that new 75 gallon tank, and I intend to make it a heavily planted tank in the "El Natural" style, using demineralized topsoil beneath gravel as susbstrate.  I wanted to keep an eye on the TDS as that project proceeds (I am currently in the "airing out the topsoil" stage).

[ Parent ]



Re: LOL! I've already freaked out over what a TDS (none / 0) (#6)
by MollieGuppy on Thu Apr 12, 2007 at 07:03:15 PM PST

First off, We cant get the python in England, I envy you. I suppose an inline pump does the same thing :P.

Sodium chloride isn't conductive in its self, Ready for the chemistry lesson. Water has very strong bonds between its atoms and salt very weak bonds between its atoms. And when salt is dissolved in water the sodium and chloride separate producing Sodium being a metal has a positive charge and chloride the non metal having a negative charge. There now Ions, and ions carry charge.

Now if yesterday when i put my hand in one of my tanks to receive a massive electric shock had been filled with pure water i wouldn't have felt anything, However if it was a brine water tank i probably would have died.

That 10ppm Difference is probably Mostly Copper In the water which is not good for invertebrates.

Fish waste, Fish food, and other bits should all be counted in your reading too.

Good luck with the planted tank, there so much better than the fake neon plant and neon gravel tanks with photo plant background.

If your switching from a plain set-up you will also notice the difference in the fish's behaviour. Accidental spawnings normally occur in the planted set-ups.

Would love to hear your stocking plans.

MollieGuppy

[ Parent ]



Water hardness question | 5 comments (5 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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