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Cotton Mouth or some kind of Tumor???
By Derek G from the Derek G department, Section Diaries Posted on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 01:00:14 PM PST Tags: (all tags)

I have a female guppy with a growth around her mouth that I believe to be either cotton mouth or perhaps some form of a tumor.

I've created a webpage that has 6 pictures and 2 movies of the fish to possibly help anyone identify what might be wrong. It's at www.derekonline.com/fish.html.

I've also outlined some specs on that page about the fish and the situation, but I'll copy the information here.

"I have a female guppy who has what I believe to be either cottonmouth/body fungus or some kind of tumor growing alongside the mouth. I have tried taking a few pictures and 2 movies to show it as best I can, but it doesn't come out very clearly. It looks like a white cottony area. I have isolated the fish in a quarantine tank and initially used the appropriate dose of Fungus Clear, but I then did a 1/3 water change and have switched to erythromycin treatment and have been following the directions including the directed water changes. I'm on dose 3 of 4 and it doesn't appear to be changing at all. The fish was in my large tank for approximately 1 week before I moved it; my understanding of cotton mouth is that its highly contageous, which leads me to think it might not be it since none of the other fish in that tank are showing any signs whatsoever. Whatever it is that is affecting this fish has disfigured it's mouth, though it is still able to eat. Has anyone encountered this before, or have any ideas on what I might try?"

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Cotton Mouth or some kind of Tumor??? | 5 comments (5 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Please look in Immediate Help at Cotton Mouth. (none / 0) (#1)
by unclescott on Mon Feb 19, 2007 at 09:43:55 PM PST

I am not sure why one medicine will work and another will not. Cotton mouth is not a fungus and doesn't seem to be effected by some antibiotics. As a matter of fact, cotton mouth is a less vicious version of Columnaris (again please take a look at Immediate Help which sure wasn't in this case) and cotton mouth isn't as quick to wipe out an aquarium as columnaris.

But don't just do 1/3 water changes between medicines. That can fatally mix medicines! Fortunately you can completely change out your quarantine tank and replace it with water from an established aquarium. Erythromycin doesn't seem as quick to wipe out nitrogen cycles as some other antibiotics, so if there is any of that cycling going on from imported water, etc, maybe it still is going on. Feed sparingly so minimal ammonia accumulates. (Ammonia will kill quicker than the disease.) There are a couple of brand names for Triple Sulfa. They all seem to be the same sulfa drug combo and should be effective again the mouth fungus.

Good luck and all the best!

Re: Please look in Immediate Help at Cotton Mouth. (none / 0) (#2)
by Derek G on Mon Feb 19, 2007 at 11:22:44 PM PST

I did review the IH postings but they seem different. In the one specifically titled cotton mouth, the fish was lethargic and could barely eat. Neither are the case with my lady. She swims about just as she always has, in no apparent distress whatsoever. She also eats her normal quantity of food. Just to clarify as well, I had initially tried 1 treatment of the fungus clear, which does indicate on the box that it can be used for treatment of fungus (which it describes as "white or grey cottony growth or patches on any part of fish." 24 hours after that initial treatment, I did the 1/3 water change and added the first does of e-mycin, and have now completed 3 doses of it which involves 24 hours & 25% water change before 2nd dose, 48 hours & 25% water change before 3rd, and 24 hours & 25% water change before 4th dose. So the tank (a 5 gallon) is getting daily water changes with treated water that has been left out. Also, when I do water changes, I do vacuum the gravel quite thoroughly until I don't pick up any noticeable particulate - which means I'm usually over the 25% part but I don't see the harm in that.

My concern is that the growth doesn't appear to have quite all the properties of cotton mouth that I've read about. I've seen somewhere that true cotton mouth is accompanied by what I think was described as red marks around the base, or a red circle of some sort. My lady doesn't have that. Also, the patches seem to be growing (if I'm not losing my mind - which is quite possible) from the side of the mouth now to 3 sections going back about to eye level on the top of the head. I would have hoped that after 1 dose of fungus cure, and 3 doses of e-mycin that there would be SOME signs of improvement. I can try triple sulfa, which I'll need to go out and get. I do have melafix and aquarium salt, which were mentioned in the IH. Since those aren't really "medicines" I wouldn't expect any problems mixing them, but I'm not going to do anything yet. I just hope it's not some kind of tumor where I have to euthanize my gal. She's my favorite of my 2 females.

eh, we'll see how this all plays out i guess....

[ Parent ]

One of the reasons why the infected fish (none / 0) (#3)
by unclescott on Tue Feb 20, 2007 at 04:47:49 AM PST

hasn't become lethargic and unable to eat (which might mean that Maggie's IH fish in its reduced state also picked up a Hexamita outbreak) and hadn't had the red lines develop on the mouth, is that your prompt water changes and care have slowed down the advance of the malady.

Someone here pointed out, a little while ago, that because of the very real confusion between fungus (on an injury or dead tissue) and columnaris (associated with a bacterial outbreak) that "they" include an antibiotic now in their fungus treatments. (See below for the specific antibiotic.) That may also have slowed it down some.

And maybe, treatment with that product should be continued for a couple of weeks more until the mouth fungus goes away!

I'm really in over my head on this next set of thoughts. I know Scott Lockwood and probably others of you can address this more effectively than I can:

Erythromycin is used for certain gram positive bacteria. It is the active ingredient in Maracyn by the way. One e-mail correspondent, referring to the treatment of blue-green algae (which another site suggested might be descended from gram positive bacteria) wrote

"About nitrifying bacteria being affected: Erythromycin is primarily effective against gram positive bacteria, and I belive most nitrifying bacteria are gram negative. That being said, I have had instances where the tank had to re-cycle after it was treated with Erythromycin.
Go figure."
http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/Algae/cyanobacteria.html#4

Flavobacterium columnare (formerly and known to most of us as Flexibacter columnaris) is gram negative. The study referred to here also pointed out that there are different strains of the disease. (They studied at least five, including warm and cold water strains.) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9659690&d opt=Abstract

Triple Sulfa ... Each capsule contains 332mg sodium sulfathiazole, 84mg sodium sulfamethazine and 84mg sodium suldacetamide. http://www.pet-dog-cat-supply-store.com/shop/index.php?page=shop/flypage&product_id=15406#longde sc

If you Google "mouth fungus treatment fish" you will get several suggested treatments for mouth fungus. Triple Sulfa shows up several times. Elsewhere it is recommended for treating other diseases including "regular" columnaris which is news to me.

Other antibiotics which can treat gram negative bacteria and so a number can be found in recommendations. Here is an excerpt which suggests that mouth fungus may actually be a different genus and species of columnaris!

"Mouth Fungus is so called because it looks like a fungus attack of the mouth. It is actually caused from the bacterium Chondrococcus columnaris. It shows up first as a gray or white line around the lips and later as short tufts sprouting from the mouth like fungus. The toxins produced and the inability to eat will be fatal unless treated at an early stage.
Penicillin at 10,000 units per liter is a very effective treatment. Treat with a second dose in two days. Or use Chloromycetin, 10 to 20 mg per liter, with a second dose in two days."
http://animal-world.com/encyclo/fresh/information/Diseases.htm#Mouth%20Fungus

Chloromycetin (chloramphenicol)was mentioned, in one article I can't find now, as being useful in treating both kinds of "columnaris." An article on koi and mouth fungus suggested a 15 day treatment. Googling "Chloromycetin columnaris" will call up recommendations for treatment of our regular "Flex. columnaris" or the more recent name of
Flavobacterium columnare.

If I were a manufacturer of a fungus remedy, I sure would use this antibiotic, in that it can or might be effective against both real fungus and mouth fungus (by any name). Please look at your fungus treatment and see if Chloromycetin (chloramphenicol) is listed. If it is, I might just stay with it for another two weeks and see what happens.

It is frustrating on this end saying, "Just run out and buy another (expletive deleted) treatment." I get frustrated and angry for suggesting that sometimes - like we are all made of money! So it must be your call on whether to stay with the fungal treatment or ante up for triple sulfa or something else or just keep with what you are doing.

I'm a little surprised at that one source, which said it is very contagious. Were they speaking of both "columnaris" species? A number of hobbyist articles do that. Mouth fungus certainly doesn't seem anywhere near as virulent as "regular" columnaris in a number of other articles and in the one case where I had a fish which had it.

By the way, I could get into your home page and that was very neat. But I couldn't call up the fish images. Especially since you went to all the trouble of making a couple kinds of images, could you give us the URL again and before you hit post go to the bottom of your comment and change "Plain Text" in that middle box to "Auto Format"? That should enable that link. Thanks!

Just nibbling at what is available on-line, I certainly see why this all is so confusing. Despite good fortune treating with Triple Sulfa, in that one case long ago, I also realize that being dogmatic about using it is unwise.

Thank you for taking the time to carefully respond. I feel that I’ve learned more about these maladies and antibiotics and have learned that there could be so much more one could learn about them!

Good luck and all the best!

[ Parent ]

Re: One of the reasons why the infected fish (none / 0) (#4)
by Derek G on Tue Feb 20, 2007 at 04:57:39 PM PST

Thanks for the response US. You truly are an invaluable resource. :-)

Sorry about the goof with the pics and movies on my site; that was all my silly mistake. I've got it fixed now, and I've checked it this time to make sure the links are correct. Stupid case-sensitive file names! lol

http://www.derekonline.com/fish.html

The pictures honestly didn't come out very well; they're a bit blurry and not of the best angle to see the affected side. It's so hard to take decent pics of a moving subject through glass & water.

The videos (especially #2) do a much better job of giving an idea of what's going on. You mentioned in your response about it first started with grey or white lines around the lips then going into cottony puffs, which is exactly what happened to my fish. She's got (for all intents and purposes) a dark grey line around her mouth, and then the cottony growth.

I have one more dose of e-mycin left in this course of treatment, but I went digging in my supply cabinet and happened upon a box of trisulfa that I had bought. LOL And I didn't even know I had it! I think I'll do the 25% water change, give the last dose of e-mycin, and if that doesn't seem to be working, I'll switch to the trisulfa.

I assume from your previous message that I need to make sure to really clean out the water between changing treatments. If I do a 2/3 water change (with treated & seasoned water) and gravel vacuum very well, and perhaps put the charcoal filter back in overnight, would you think it safe to start the trisulfa the following day?

[ Parent ]

Thanks for fiddling with the URL. The videos are (none / 0) (#5)
by unclescott on Wed Feb 21, 2007 at 08:15:20 AM PST

very helpful. While I wouldn't bet my soul, I'd certainly bet lunch that it is mouth fungus.

I'm way behind you on the technological learning curves, but am also finding that a video snippet is often way better than a still shot. Especially when automatic settings (as opposed to manual focus) are on, sometimes the camera focuses on the front of the aquarium rather than the fish itself - even when it will stay put. (One may be able to overcome that by moving really close to the glass - thereby panicking the fish.) Some individuals are taking small videos and using the appropriate software to sort through video frames until they find a "keeper." That is good in some circumstances, but the video is perfect for our uses here.

And though small videos have got to be hard for people with dial-up to see (kudos for your sensitivity there) they do suddenly make those one gigabyte memory chips seem logical. ;)

I don't know why the video on my (older) digital camera focuses better on the fish (often) that the still shots do. Prolly sun spots or something. ;)

I do think that a complete water change - and I realize that is a probably a 10-gallon tank - is better for the fish. I would use 60% water from a good established tank, if you have one. And then i would wait a day for the fish's system to wash out the Erythromycin. Especially if you have a submersible heater and an airstone, there is no law which says that a ten-gallon tank must always be full.

If the water change from another tank isn't possible and if you have a filter which could take a small (nylon?) bag of rinsed, new, activated charcoal, could you run that for a day or two to take out the e-mycin? Than might be a lot easier.

I'm really glad that you found some Triple-sulfa. I'd then give that a try.

Curiosity over than one antibiotic which seems to be beneficial with real fungus (Saprolegnia type stuff) and mouth fungus makes me wonder if a prolonged treatment would work. Running a baseball analogy (it is spring, hope burns eternal) if I were the manager before a big game, I would pencil in my ace veteran pitcher before I would slate an unproven rookie. We can experiment on someone else's fish. ;)

I want to issue a bit of disclaimer in the light of your generous thank-you (which is most appreciated though.) A high school history teacher in a previous life, my academic training (such as it was) wasn't in the direction of science (I feel a bit cheesy in taking a psychology course for one of my science gen ed graduation requirements), nor was it biology, chemistry, aquaculture or fish pathology. I'm just another hobbyist. If one reads a bit here and there and hangs around for a few zillion years, a little bit of useful stuff rubs off.

There is a little something to share. In fellow traveling with Guppylog the past three years, I've learned lots about fish health which I never would have guessed about before. There is far more to learn yet. And thinking about your pleasantly surprised discovery of some Triple-Sulfa in your fishy stuff, a Guppylog inspired survey of my "little bottle shelf" (mostly a healthy collection of samples and stuff from "goody bags") was absolutely AMAZING!

All the best!

[ Parent ]

Cotton Mouth or some kind of Tumor??? | 5 comments (5 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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