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Guppy Armageddon....now what?

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By TartanGuppy
from the TartanGuppy department, Section Ask Guppylog
Posted on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 12:32:47 PM PST
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Sadly my guppys have died, I'm not sure why and I can't decide what to do now!



Sad at the loss of my little perky fish, I'm determined to try again but, I don't know whether I should run with the tank as it is or start from scratch and do a teardown and disinfect. And if I do do a teardown, what should I use to disinfect? Now before some smarty pants tells me to go off and google, I have done but can't really find any difinitive information.  One site tells me to use 5% bleach solution, another says to use lots! I'm just looking for some advice from experienced fish keepers and tips from anyone who's had similar problems. Below is a summary of what happened.

I have a Rena Maxi Kid Light aquarium (approx 30 litres) with the supplied heater, filter plus a couple of inches of gravel and a rock. All items were rinsed (rock was soaked overnight) before adding to the tank. I ran the tank for a couple of weeks before adding plants. Not all the plant survived and I managed to aquire some hitchiking snails but I was able to keep these under control by fishing all visible snails out daily.  All together the tank was run for about 6 weeks with weekly tests (Tetra test 5 in 1) and water changes (water standing over night and dosed with Nutrafin Aqua Plus water conditioner) to ensure everything was going ok.  6 weeks after the tank was set up I introduced 3 male guppys, Red, Blue and Yellow.  All was fine for a couple of weeks (weekly 20% water changes, testing etc) then I noticed that Blue's tail fin was partially closed and had red spots on the tips. I dosed the tank with King British Bacteria Control, waiting 4 days then dosed it again. Blue's fins seemed to make a full recovery but I did spot once that he had long clear trailing poop rathern than the day glo red poop they normally had (I assumed because of the red Guppy food I was feeding).

All was fine for about another 3 weeks then red started to act oddly. He was spinning at the bottom of the tank, almost like he was chasing his tail. He wouldn't come up to the surface to feed but I managed to get food down to him and he ate. Blue and Yellow were fine and seemed to be swimming, eating and pooping as normal.  After hours of watching Red, trying to spot anything on him that shouldn't be I couldn't see anything.  The other two seemed fine. So, did did a water change then a dose of the bacteria control.  Red didn't get any better and about 4 days later, I got up in the morning to find Red and Blue both dead in the bottom of the tank. :o( Yellow appeared to be fine swimming away in the current from the filter so removed the bodies, fed him and went off to work. Sadly when I came home, Yellow had also gone to the aquarium in the sky!  I had a good look at the bodies before disposing of them and could not see anything wrong with them on the exterior.
I did a set of tests they day they died and my results were NO2 0, NO3 25, GH <3, KH 0, pH 6.8 and a separate ammonia test was negative.

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Guppy Armageddon....now what? | 11 comments (9 topical, 2 editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: Guppy Armageddon....now what? (none / 0) (#10)
by Haanu on Tue Nov 07, 2006 at 09:41:12 AM PST

Sorry to hear about your guppies. But you know what, don&#8217;t lose hope. It took me a lot of failure until I finally got a hang of how to balance my fish tank. All of us beginners probably went through the same experience. You just have to keep on trying. If you find that keeping small peaceful fishes like guppies are hard to maintain, maybe you can try keeping medium sized aggressive ones like the Cichlids. They are not actually as sensitive as the guppies. Though, this is based on my experience.



Re: Guppy Armageddon....now what? (none / 0) (#2)
by granddruid on Thu Aug 03, 2006 at 12:28:33 PM PST

I would not use bleach to clean an aquarium.  It extremely toxic difficult to completly rinse, and unecessary.  Aquarium bacteria are not the same as the usual bacteria the infect us people.  Most bacteria are fairly sensitive, if you drain the aquarium for a couple of and maybe put it in sunlight most the bacteria will die.
(boiling and Sodium BiCarbinate are fine though)
If you do use Bleach definitly follow it with something like Sodium BiCarbinate it will help nuetralize any remaining Bleach.

I do not think bad bacteria is your problem.  First thing I will note is that guppies like salt almost all fish, even fresh water fish like some salt.  It maintain osmotic pressure will helps them to absorb nutrients from the water and their food. I add about 1 tablespoon of Aquarium Salt per 5 gallons of water.  Salt does not get comsumed and does not evaporate, so when changin water only add salt for the water removed.  The box should have instructions. Salt will encourage the guppies to breed, not that guppies need much encouragement.

Last but most important is your test results. A KH of 0 is bad.  KH does 2 things.  First is stablizes pH, if KH is 0 nothing is stabilizing the pH and it could change drastically with in even 30 minute time frames.  Even if it stays in a healthy range the constantly changing pH is bad for the fish.  Second KH with pH tells you the amount of CO2 in the aquarium.  A KH of 0 always means there is no CO2.  You should maintain a CO2 of 10mg/l to 20mg/l.  At a ph of 6.8 that is a KH of 2 to 4.25.  At a ph of 7.0 you need a KH of 3.25 to 6.5.  In general higher pH means you need a high KH to maintain the same CO2 level. 5mg/l is the minimum amount of C02 for photosynthesis, while 30mg/l will cause resipritory problems for the fish.  KH boosters are often solid as pH stabilizers.

When ever you start adding fish to an aquarium their will be spikes until the bacteria can build up their population.  First Ammonia, then NO3, and last NO2.  I usualy have some fish die during the NO3 spike.  Which looks like where you were at when your fish died.



Would sodium bicarbonate, a mild base, (none / 0) (#3)
by unclescott on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 12:34:29 AM PST

neutralize a powerful base like bleach? It might drop the overall alkalinity, but adding a solution of 9 to one of 12.5 isn't going to neutralize it. That would be very dangerous in a tank.

Maybe an acid like vinegar 2.9 would be better at neutralizing bleach residuals. However sodium thiosulfate, the active ingredient in dechloronators, reacts with the bleach or Sodium hypochlorite, and the chlorine is very quickly released out of the solution. It isn't hard to use.

I think you are right that sometimes we don't need to bleach things, boiling works fine on gravel. It is hard to boil an aquarium though. ;) Bleach may still not work on bacteria such as mycobacterium, the TB bacteria, because they are encased in a tough waxy substance which needs to be broken down with something like rubbing alcohol.

I'm curious about your comments on KH. I think you have spotted a problem in the water in that both the buffering capacity of the water and the minerals dissolved in it are quite low. Adding a little of one of those Great Rift cichlid salts could well help in both of those areas.

If the DH is really low, wouldn't adding a lot of sodium chloride inhibit the fish's ability to keeps it calcium, magnesium and other minerals in its system?

Sodium chloride is useful in helping fish breath when they are stressed. But they don't like it. As such. Guppies are secondary freshwater fish, suggesting that they descended from marine fish and tolerate it. The salt in a medicinal dosage is designed to irritate its skin which causes a greater production of skin slim/ mucus which keeps some skin parasites somewhat at bay. Except for those guppies which wash down to the estuarian areas of Trinidad, are there other guppy habitats which have significant salt concentrations. Many of their habitats have a pH above 7, but sodium chloride doesn't have any effect upon that, does it?

Are those KH figures absolute or do they need adjustment, depending upon what is in the water?

I know TartanGuppy reported an ammonia reading of zero. Could there have been something wrong with the measuring kit's reagent? The tank, with no fish and the elimination of the snails, would not have significantly cycled in those first six weeks. So there was not hardly any ammonia available (except maybe from a little decaying plant material) to nourish beneficial bacteria which would break later waste products down. After week three, antibiotics were added and those likely would have killed some or all of the bacteria breaking down the ammonia, nitrites and nitrates. Spinning fish can be a sign of an illness or of poisoning. The first candidate one probably should look for in terms of poisoning is one of those waste products.

A fish stressed with waste products in the water may then be more vulnerable to bacterial intrusion. Your comments about bacteria ecgo another's observation that bacteria are pretty wimpy parasites. But if water quality is iffy, that can give bacteria an opening. Red spots on the tail can be a sign of bacterial problems (see tail rot.)

The whitish fecal material of the one fish is sometimes associated with Hexamita. Yet they were reported as feeding well.

Again I think you are right, that in itself should not have been enough to kill those guppies.

Still don't know what killed those fish. We might not know unless an expensive pathologist looked at the fish and water immediately upon death.

all the best,
uncle scott

[ Parent ]



Thanks for help... (none / 0) (#8)
by TartanGuppy on Mon Aug 07, 2006 at 12:06:32 PM PST

...all of you good enough to reply. Your suggestions are apprecited.

First, a few answers to some questions asked -
My rock came from a pet store and was labeled 'Aquarium Rock - Medium Red' Helpfull huh! :o) By boyfriend has a similar rock in his aquarium with no problems so I don't think that's the problem.
Because I had a small Nitrite peak back at the beginning, I thought my tank had cycled but, after reading angelholograms article I realise it probably wasn't properly cycled.  
I don't think I introduced anything nasty chemicals into the tank inadvertantly. I have a cat and am aware of many household products can be nasty not just for pets but humans too.  No bug sprays either as that'd be putting the cat out of a job!   And I'm the worst kind of anti-smoker....an ex smoker!  So unless the cat has a secret 40 a day habit there is no nicotine being introduced.

Struggling to get my head around the chemistry of the whole thing but think I have a plan.

Empty and clean tank - not sure about bleach, it's so nasty. Someone IRL suggested pottassium permanganate, any thoughts anyone?  I live in Scotland and inspite of one of the best summer's for a long time, I'm not sure I can muster up enough sunshine to zap any nasty bacteria! I can easily boil the rock and gravel. Filter and heater can be rinsed in whatever I decide to use.  I've also bought a slightly bigger and hopefully better designed filter as the old one was prone to blocking up with dead plants and the water flow would drop. Only a couple of plants survived so I'm not feeling too sentimental about chucking them out.  
Once the tank has been cleaned I'll refill and start with the ammonia. I've also taken on board that I need to add salt and adjust my KH and PH.

There now, I've made a decision and have a plan. I feel so much better :o)

[ Parent ]



Re: Would sodium bicarbonate, (none / 0) (#4)
by angelhologram on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 06:37:35 AM PST

Well now, you both sound so convincing but wouldn't the best way to take care of any residual bleach be to pour some dechlorinator on a sponge and scrub scrub scrub? Don't forget those corners! Then fill with water, add a bunch more dechlor, sit overnight, dump water, fill back up and add normal amount of dechlor ;-P
J/K, I loved this conversation
*BEFORE you buy fish make sure you understand what "Cycling" a tank means <- quoted from miskaral* ~Trying to make a difference one fish at a time~
[ Parent ]


Sure, but time is precious. A 32-gallon Rubbermaid (none / 0) (#6)
by unclescott on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 08:22:22 AM PST

trash can with a stock solution of sodium thiosulfate will do the trick while I'm elsewhere. In the future the trash can will season water or raise daphnia.

[ Parent ]


That is sad and frustrating. You were doing (none / 0) (#1)
by unclescott on Mon Jul 31, 2006 at 09:45:47 AM PST

a lot of things right.

If you do tear it down and clean it out, consider a fish-less cycling. Angelhologram has a  great article on that in Immediate Help. I need to memorize it!

That might give them a better start. Empty tanks don't really cycle because there is no ammonia/ waste material (excepting some plant material) to get it started. I applaud your careful approach though.

The symptoms do sound a little like bacterial problems. When we add a bactericide or antibiotic, we also tend to kill the beneficial bacteria and take the tanks back to step one in the cycling process.

Another thing to watch out for - an all of us have probably threatened our fish - inadvertently - this way. We use household cleaning agents (including ammonia and chlorine) or spray bug sprays or even (at least here) have things like Shell Pest Strips to zap insects. The list of potential poisons is long, maybe (I remain skeptical of this) even cigarettes could be included. Formaldehyde in the insulation of older houses here has also been questioned.

I scrub down with baking soda to get as much soap residual as possible off before getting into the tanks. Probably could do more water changes instead. ;)

After your careful start, you have got to feel like "no good deed must go unpunished." I would certain at least rinse out the tank and gravel and filter very thoroughly. (Actually I would bleach the tank and filter and boil the gravel - but that is because I need to get a life.) I wouldn't do the fish-less cycle because I can import the gravel, plants, and water and if I plan ahead, filter from other tanks. If you have a nearby aquarist friend with a healthy aquarium that is a possibility. (Tell him or her that this crazy American suggested it.)

If not importing the cycle, I would try the fish-less cycle. And maybe a couple of days before putting the fish in there, get a few again, just like you did, and put them in a clean, soap-less container. I would give them a treatment for internal parasites. Without those, the fish's immune systems can more effectively deal with the bacterial threats. It is also neat how the anti-parasite treatments sometimes take out other nasty wee beasties too.

Was the rock from an aquarium shop? Even they still make mistakes sometimes. What was the rock?

When getting plants, you might want to cleanse them too. I offered a few suggestions in the IH area.

A real long shot, but if you use frozen food, make sure on the one hand that they are well rinsed in Luke warm water after defrosting and also make sure that nothing has spoiled, if extra was kept in the refrigerator.

Just kind of throwing things against the wall to see if anything sticks. ;)

Good luck and all the best!
uncle scott



FILTHY! (none / 0) (#5)
by RaiderFan92 on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 07:45:13 AM PST

When I took my fish tank out of the basement, I used 409 (Well, the generic version that does have bleach) to clean it. My fish were fine. But I did leave in the tub with water overflowign out of it for about a half hour.

And I did have to take it down again when I had it up filled with water in my room. I had to refill it again.

Geuss why? I forgot to put in the UG filter plate! Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! I am seriously sitting here in my parents office, and laughing!
"The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself."-FDR. True, unless your playing against the Oakland Raiders.
[ Parent ]



Does 409 have soap or ammonia? Always (none / 0) (#7)
by unclescott on Fri Aug 04, 2006 at 08:23:15 AM PST

look at the ingredients. :)

[ Parent ]


Guppy Armageddon....now what? | 11 comments (9 topical, 2 editorial, 0 hidden)
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