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Automated water changer revisions

Aquaria
By PeterW
from the just-too-lazy department, Section News
Posted on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 12:33:32 PM PST
Tags: (all tags)
I've been tinkering with my automatic water change system again.  It is now in its third generation configuration.

It has been an interesting learning experience and I thought I'd jot down some notes in case anybody else is looking for inspiration.



Originally, I had it all inside with a 6 foot long carbon filter to dechlorinate the tap water on the fly and used home-made siphon overflows based on a design from http://waynesworldangelfish.com/automated_water_changes.htm  I used Norit PK1-3 carbon from a local industrial chemical supplier.  A large bag cost me $75, and I used less than 1/10 of it per refill.  Each refill lasts at least 6 months.

I have photos of the first generation here: http://photos.wemm.org/autochanger

I change 5% of each tank's water every 6 hours.  That makes a 20% change per day.  The fish essentially live in fresh dechlorinated tap water as there is no time for contaminants to build up.  In fact, when filters fail, there is usually no ammonia buildup either.  At least, not in any but the most heavily stocked tanks.

The main problem was that I had to run water pipes all over the place to various fish tank locations, and when the system was turned off, the pipes drained the water and filled with air.  Turning it on made quite a noiseas the air bled out.

The second problem was that we prefered the taste of dechlorinated water for drinking, coffee, etc.    My wife wanted to use dechlorinated water but didn't want to have to fight her way into the fish area to turn it on.  Dechlorinated water on-tap would have been much nicer.

Also, I was a little concerned that I might not be getting enough contact time between the water and the carbon.  It was very high grade carbon, but with the flow rate I was using, it was only getting about 90 seconds of contact time instead of the recommened 10-15 minutes.

Finally, when I changed the carbon in the filter after about 5-6 months I discovered that the process was quite a nightmare.  We got water and carbon grit everywhere, including on the carpets etc.  I didn't want to have to go through that again.

So, I modified it to a second generation system.  I kept the overflow system on the tanks unchanged, but moved the production system outside.  The carbon filter now used an Aquatec tank level controller to keep a 44 gallon barrel full of dechlorinated water.  The flow rate was much slower, giving about 8-10 minutes of contact time.  I used an Aquatec delivery pump to pressurize a 14 gallon bladder tank and fed water inside to the three locations that needed dechlorinated water.  (Kitchen and the two fish areas).  This time I ran the water tubing under the house and up through the floors to the locations that needed the water.

Like before, my computer controlled the water system using UPB appliance modules and Aquatec solenoid valves to turn on water to 3/8" tubing, non-return valves and 20 psi pressure regulators.  The 20psi output fed the dripper system and filled the tanks to the siphon overflow point.

This worked out very well.  Except for one major problem.  Our tap water is too soft.  Most of the water in the San Francisco bay area is in the 150-200ppm TDS (total dissolved solids) area.  Our water (near Walnut Creek) is 45ppm and very alkaline (pH 9.2) and very very poorly buffered (<14ppm KH, and <17ppm GH).  It is mostly snow melt from the Sierra Nevada mountains. They add raw sodium hydroxide to raise the pH at the sterilization plants.  ie: the pH is high because of the NaOH rather than buffers.  The water is great for the Killi folks, but lousy for hard water fish like guppies.  With this low level of buffering, it easily had massive pH swings if a dripper blocked up.

I was having periodic problems with dropsy like symptoms until I started adding aquarium salt by hand.  I figure the guppies just were just under constant osmotic stress due to the very soft water.  My guppies were not particularly happy campers until then.

Adding salt by hand was getting really old, really fast.  I'd forget to check for a few days and was having large TDS swings.

So, I finally got annoyed enough and went ahead and built revision 3 of the processing system.  I wanted to automatically add additives to raise the TDS to around 120ppm for the guppies.  What I did was the following.

Stage 1: dechlorination.
Instead of the 6 foot long carbon filter, I picked up some 10" filter bodies and extruded carbon block filters from http://www.wateranywhere.com/ - I have a sediment filter in front of 5 carbon block filters in series, with a tap before the last three.  That way I can periodically test for chlorine leakage past the first two carbon filters which would indicate time to change them.  I use a 100gpd RO waste flow restrictor to control the flow through.  (Note that it doesn't let 100 gallons per day through. On a RO unit, it is the flow restrictor for the waste water so that the RO unit gives 100 gallons of product water per day.  I figure it lets between 500-1000 gallons per day.)

I have a Hach low range free/total chlorine test kit and have confirmed that just one carbon block filter at that slow flow rate produces a zero reading for total chlorine, even on tap water with 2ppm of chloramine in it.  I'm using the H-F2510AC cartridge from wateranywhere (who are a retail division of "applied membranes").  5 of them in series is excessive, but I figure it will be a year or so before I exhaust the first two.  2 x $7 for a year's supply of dechlorinated water is a bargain compared to dechlorination chemicals.  Having three afterwards should give me plenty of time to be lazy about noticing the leakage past the first stage.

A tank level controller keeps a 44 gallon barrel full of dechlorinated water.  An aquatec delivery pump feeds a 14 gallon pressure bladder tank.  This water feeds the tetras inside and stage2a and stage 2b.

Stage 2a: a tank level controller takes water from stage 1 and keeps a 44 gallon barrel full.  But, I have a submerged pond fountain pump with a TDS sensor attached in the bottom of the barrel.  This is attached to a Hanna TDS controller, which I got from http://www.automatedaquariums.com/  This controller drives a peristatic pump that feeds Kent's "RO Right" additive to the barrel.  The submerged pump keeps the barrel stirred and measures the TDS as the additive is going in.  I have a larger Aquatec delivery pump and a larger 14 gallon pressure tank and a 5/8" tube run to the guppies inside.

Stage 2b: just a regular RO unit for kitchen drinking water.  The RO water passed the taste test and since everything else was in turmoil, I set that up too.

So far, everything has been working very nicely.  One of my indoor tanks that has had a particularly troubled group of fish has suddenly come to life.

Kent "RO right" might not be the best additive, but it is convenient in liquid form and our tap water isn't far from what would be RO water in some other hard-water areas.  It is deficient in many trace elements.  And so far, the reaction in a couple of tanks has been encouraging.  I do plan to switch from adding pure liquid RO right to a watered down mixture with some aquarium salt added as well.  I'm hoping that will reduce the overshoot that happens because the mixing of the highly concentrated RO Right isn't quite fast enough and there is a few minutes of time delay between the drips reaching the mixing barrel and it registering on the TDS controller.

Now all I need to to is figure out how to make an automatic gravel vac system and an automated algae scraper.  That would really make things nice and easy. :-)

I plan to take more photos, but haven't got around to it yet.

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Related Links
· http://way nesworldangelfish.com/automated_water_changes.htm
· http://pho tos.wemm.org/autochanger
· http://www .wateranywhere.com/
· http://www .automatedaquariums.com/
· More on Aquaria
· Also by PeterW

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Automated water changer revisions | 13 comments (13 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: Automated water changer revisions (none / 0) (#14)
by jacher on Tue Nov 07, 2006 at 09:39:51 AM PST

Wow, your tank seems like an expensive high technology tank. I wonder if it&#8217;s expensive to purchase and maintain this type of tank since everything is like automatic with just a push of a button. Mind if I ask how much you spent to set up your tank? What kind of fish do you maintain in your tank? I bet you keep expensive fishes also. I&#8217;d like to find out more about your tank and your fish. Hope you write more about it.



Re: Automated water changer revisions (none / 0) (#11)
by Honeyrobber on Wed May 31, 2006 at 04:43:50 AM PST


 Cloramine does break down but takes much longer than the 24 hours to gas out clorine. I forgot the length of time but for most of us with many tanks it is not feasable to just season the water in a holding tank. I am luck to not have cloramine as of yet.

  I am looking to move and looking for a place with a well. A well will allow me to put my tanks on a simular but simpler system as it will have no need for declorinating or hardening and such. Maybe then my soft water fish will finally get a RO system instead of me buying distilled water(only need 4 gallon a week currently but would love to expand the number of soft water fish).
 
John Cox of Cumberland Killies and bee services



One concern about well water, aside from the (none / 0) (#12)
by unclescott on Wed May 31, 2006 at 05:27:11 AM PST

tendency around here to be hard to very hard - 160 PPM to 400+ PPM - would be what else is in it. I first encountered a fishroom well when I visited a cichlid guy in the NW Chicago suburbs. His fish house (looked like a one time machine shop attached to his home) was about 75 X 15 feet (23 x 4.5 meters)! He had 30 of those 100 gallon-long aquariums and another 50-60 good sized tanks. That is a lot of water!

The room was a wearying 84 degrees F/ 29 C and on the cold February day I visited, that about wilted me. He has his own well and the water flows through his tanks and out. I noticed the water was introduced via a nozzle, which really offered up a fine spray under considerable pressure. The tank it went into has several large cichlids and some very large pacu.

I asked Rick about the nozzle. He nodded and said that it was necessary. When he first set the well water up on a slow flow, the cichlids in the first tank got more and more lethargic and died! It turns out that there was a lot of nitrogen in the water and they were suffocating of nitrogen poisoning!

That floored me! The nozzle seemed to dissipate the nitrogen into the air. Sometimes carbon dioxide can also be in quantity in well water. I supposed one could run the water through a well lit "plant filter". I would be interested in other ways to deal with those things.

Evidently the room's air temperature warmed up the spray of well water. I don't think I would want to work around the fish in a swim suit and flip flops though. ;)

Maybe you would want to get water from a well, near where you would drill, analyzed. It would have to be tested pretty soon after the water was withdrawn, I would guess. (Oh Charles...)

In his book on Commonsense Guide to Fish Health, Terry Fairfield notes that the suburban well his family used with the rental house, when they first moved to Illinois, caused his family to become very ill and a lot of his fish to die. It turns out there was E-coli in it!

All the best!
u.s.

[ Parent ]



Re: Automated water changer revisions (none / 0) (#2)
by Alisa on Sun May 21, 2006 at 04:06:50 PM PST

Do you happen to have plants?  I would assume plants would do poorly in such "clean" water.



Re: Automated water changer revisions (none / 0) (#3)
by PeterW on Sun May 21, 2006 at 05:18:52 PM PST

Traditional aquarium plants seem to hate the water.    Najas grass grows like there is no tomorrow.  But then again, it always seems to do that.

My next project is getting the planted tank working right.  At least, I'll give it one last shot.

[ Parent ]



Re: Automated water changer revisions (none / 0) (#1)
by miskairal on Sun May 21, 2006 at 01:48:22 AM PST

So when are you coming back to Oz, I might get you up here for a visit (bring some tools with you too, eh?).

Seriously though, I would love to set something up like that on my tanks especially the saltwater one as water changes on it are back breaking. As for the gravel vacuuming, I'm sure you will think of something ;)

Thanks for sharing that great info Peter.
--
Repeat after me,
I will read the Immediate Help



Re: Automated water changer revisions (none / 0) (#5)
by no1likeme1414 on Mon May 22, 2006 at 01:46:13 PM PST

WOW!  Holy Cow, I was so excited when I purchased one of these:  http://www.pythonproducts.com/nospill.htm

Now, my newfound smugness has been utterly destroyed.  That is quite the setup you've got going on there!

20% PER DAY?!  AYFKM?  Awesome!

Thanks for the post, Peter!

[ Parent ]



Re: Automated water changer revisions (none / 0) (#9)
by PeterW on Wed May 24, 2006 at 01:45:41 PM PST

Yes. 20%.

It seems to me that what most bothers the fish is a sudden change in their conditions.  Particularly the water chemistry, but my personal observation is that temperature variations seems to matter less than chemical changes.

So, on one hand if you do a water change every week, fortnight or month, then the incoming water is going to be significantly different chemically to the water you're taking out.  Bigger changes logically will cause more of a shock.

But, if you can do what I do, then a 5% change 4 times per day (total 20%) means that there is little to no chance of any major chemical buildup relative to tap water.  That 5% change happens by plant dripper over a 30 minute period, so any temerature changes are going to be lost in the noise.

Having this much water change means that the fish seem to do well even in what would be normally a case of serious overstocking.  Pet stores get away with high stocking levels by having massive filtration capacity and daily water changes from the sump as part of their routine.  Likewise, I seem to be able to get away with having an unthinkable number of guppies in a 20 gallon tank at times.  Not that I like doing it, but sometimes they just breed too fast and it takes a while to reach equilibrium.

[ Parent ]



But for people with a large tank, getting a python (none / 0) (#6)
by unclescott on Mon May 22, 2006 at 04:10:56 PM PST

is a terrific idea. If your tap has chlorinated or chloramined water, be careful adding it straight to your aquarium. If the tank is well established, you probably can add a dose of a conditioner like Ultimate, Ammo-Lock, AmQuel or something similar to the tank and run some (10-15% of the tank's?) water of like temperature there. If the tank is new (1-2 months), be careful. A stronger case for seasoning the water can be made.

I use my python to take gunk out and to add water to really dirty tanks that are going to be washed out and restarted. Maybe that is just me.

Of course I am considering getting a small sump pump, with a switch on a long cord and with a hose, to bring water to tanks. Maintaining aquariums needn't be a physical fitness workout, unless you want it to be one.

Using a tool like the python could also be a step on the road Peter has taken. Or you may find it is enough to enable you to do a great job with a community aquarium.

ATB!
uncle, different strokes for different folks, scott

[ Parent ]



Re: But for people with a large tank, getting a py (none / 0) (#10)
by PeterW on Wed May 24, 2006 at 02:03:11 PM PST

Beware, I started with a Python too. :-)

On the subject of sumps and pumps, did I mention that I have two buckets in the area with a water level triggered sump pump in it?  This is really useful too.

When I'm cleaning a tank with a large number of fry in it, I siphon into a 5 gallon bucket.  After the water clears, I can shine a light in to make sure I haven't caught any fry.  When I'm ready, I just dump the bucket in the sump system.  The water level rises, the pump turns on, and drains it out through a dishwasher attachment in the sink.

Of course, using a pump to draw seasoned water from a sump is only one step behind what I did, so beware. :-)  Instead of a sump pump, I use a pressure pump normally associated with RO systems and a bladder tank.  That way I just have to turn on a tap and have prepared water right there.

As for chloramine, I believe the majority of water supplies for larger populations in the US are well and truely loaded with chloramine now.  Simply aging the water does absolutely nothing because it is in a stable state.  I've heard of people putting water with chloramine directly into a tank and having the tank absorb the hit somehow, but usually this is from other people who didn't know that aging chloramine contamintated water doesn't work anymore.  They were used to aging water which allowed the chlorine to outgas into the air.  Having a lot of plants seems to be the key as plants do seem to break it down rather readily to get to the nitrogen in the ammonia part of the chloramine molecule.

On the other hand, an incident with chloramine water is what killed my favourite fish store last year.  They normally put the hose in the sump for a short amount of time to let it fill and overflow.  This is how they did their water changes.  The problem was that somebody left it on all night and the chlormaine hit was just too much for their system to handle.  Everything crashed and all the fish died (except for some apparently indestructable cichlids and an 18 inch long pleco!).  Their insurance company called it quits and they had to close.

[ Parent ]



Re: But for people with a large tank, getting a py (none / 0) (#7)
by no1likeme1414 on Mon May 22, 2006 at 04:45:31 PM PST

Hmm ... obviously you are the expert, and I am the scribe, but I have used the Python (direct link to the faucet that both drains and fills the tank) for water changes since I bought it months ago.  Also, I never did "season" water, because my wife is already done with my fish hobby and I don't have as many tanks, fish and toys that I'd love to have, much less an RO unit or 55-gal. drums of rainwater sitting around.  ;)

So far, I've never had a problem with the tap water so long as I dump some Amquel + (removes chlorine, chroramine, ammonia, nitrates and nitrites) as well as stress coat (rem. chlorine, chroramine).

The worst "disaster" was when I failed to match the water temperature ... most of my new fish went into shock for a few minutes that time.  Happily, none died!  

If for nothing else, the Python system is FANTASTIC for gravel cleaning / drainage.  At least you don't have to carry water one way!  :P

[ Parent ]



You've got to work with what you have. (none / 0) (#8)
by unclescott on Mon May 22, 2006 at 05:10:56 PM PST

I'm tickled it works so well for you.

I wonder if we could find out what the active ingredients for Amquel II and Stress Coat are. If they are the same, using them both is redundent. On the other hand (or is that fin?), different chemicals can be used to reach similar goals.

You have quite a bit of company among those who feel that an established aquarium will take a certain amount of chloramine and "use it up." It seems that Python water changers are almost a requirement for "cichlididiots" (their term not mine) since they use such big tanks and often need such massive water changes. Certainly the hobby would be different without them (both the pythons and cichlid enthusiasts).

By the way, for the thrifty minded, one can put together a less expensive device with just a clean garden hose (drinking quality means you don't have to worry about plasticisers washing out, though one could just let it rinse out before use) and one of those water bed changers. I think the python would last a lot longer than the water bed devices however.

all the best!
unc

[ Parent ]



Welcome back Peter! Always look (none / 0) (#4)
by unclescott on Mon May 22, 2006 at 10:47:47 AM PST

forward to your treatises. :)

In fact, I was alluding to your comments on Ich when your log appeared. Those comments have been very useful.

You always give me stuff to shoot for. I would echo Miskairal's "do you do house calls."

Discovered that using RO water for coffee (since the  RO water is so chemically active) requires only half as much ground coffee in the basket.)

Alisa's is an interesting question about plants. As a gross generalization, plants usually do well in clean water which is a little alkaline in pH. Is it possible (echoing some tanks with UG filters) that your water is so clean that the plants are starving? That wouldn't explain why the Najas is doing so well though.

Could it be a light factor? Who has made it and who hasn't?

I never used to be able to keep sword plants (Echinodoris). They would starve for light, getting smaller and smaller...

Since I have increased the number of light fixtures around the place, lowered some of the 4' shop lights to within 6" of the water and begun rotating the (brighter, more efficient fluorescent) T-8s in to replace the (older, more common) T-12s I have been gratified to find better plant growth with several species. Still haven't tried sword plants yet though. ;)

Of course you probably have skylights by now and control them with baffles run by a program on your computer. :)

All the best!
unc

[ Parent ]



Automated water changer revisions | 13 comments (13 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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