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Female guppy fatalities

Health and Medicine
By Edelweiss
from the Edelweiss department, Section Ask Guppylog
Posted on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 12:33:17 PM PST
Tags: (all tags)
I own a ten gallon tank in which I keep guppies and mollies and I have been able to support them all save for the female guppies; the male guppies, male mollies, and female mollies are completely healthy.



 I have had my two male guppies ever since a few days after I set up the tank a few months ago, and I have experienced no problems with them. They are always healthy, swimming well with no obvious deformities or bacterial infections. They had the tank to themselves for a couple months, and I thought it a bit bare so I added two mollies and two Cories. The guppies got along well with their new tankmates, and all was well as the mollies and cories settled in. About a week later I decided to give my males some females; I purchased four, one of which was pregnant already. She was fine at first but when I checked on her that night she was swimming at the bottom of the tank, unmoving from one spot. She was quite large, so I thought perhaps she was preparing to give birth. The next morning she was dead. I removed her from the tank, and just a few days later one of the other females showed signs of similar illness. She was relatively small and I separated her from the others, and the next morning she met a similar fate. The next day another of the females died unexpectedly. All of the other fish are perfectly healthly. I began to do a %20 water change each day. I purchased another female guppy to replace those that had died, and she so far has been doing well. The last of the original four gave birth last night to at least three fry, and I seperated her under the impression that she had more to deliver (her gravid spot was still dark and she was swimming heavily). I returned from the gym today to find her barely able to support herself, drifting down to the bottom of her smaller tank and then struggling again to the top in an endless pattern. She was not interested in food. I put her back in the larger tank, hoping it would lessen the stress on her. I thought perhaps she had more fry to deliver and this was her way of doing it. She too has since died. Throughout all this, the males, the mollies, and two cories have remained in perfect health, and now I am concerned for my remaining female guppy and the fry of the most recently deceased. I cannot fathom why the females have been afflicted in this way and the males are completely unaffected. I haven't noticed the males harrassing the females at all save for upon their initial arrival into the tank; the last female to die had been very healthy and active until she gave birth, in fact. She seemed very strong, but now she's another fatality. And the mollies seem to almost take no notice of the guppies. The temperature in the tank in set at 78 degrees, and I continue to do a %20 water change every day. Does anyone have any other suggestions as to what may be causing this? Thanks very much for any input.
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Female guppy fatalities | 6 comments (4 topical, 2 editorial, 0 hidden)
A lot of this is conjecture, but (none / 0) (#6)
by unclescott on Wed Nov 08, 2006 at 09:11:16 PM PST

it is possible that your two male guppies had effectively run the tank through that nitrogen cycle, where there is an ammonia spike in the first week or two.  Ammonia is very toxic. Then a colony of beneficial bacteria multiplies until it can "devour" most of the ammonia, converting it to the less toxic nitrites. There is then a nitrite spike and another culture of beneficial bacteria multiplies to break that stuff down into nitrates, which are a lot less toxic, unless in quantity.

The tank, as you noted, hummed along well.. You added the two Corydoras and the two mollies. They probably weigh a lot more than the two male guppies. Their waste material output, feces and urine - curiously mostly released with all the other exchanges going on through the gills, would be a lot more than the tank's biological system was "used to." In effect the bacteria processing the ammonia from the males would be too few and there again, as almost always, would be an ammonia increase with the additional fish. At that point your aquarium and nitrogen cycle seems to have been still working, but the limits were being pushed, though it might not have been obvious unless you were testing for ammonia. (By the way, I would be glad to be wrong.)

Even a lot of people, who understand what the initial nitrogen cycling process is all about, don't know or forget that every time new fish are added, that process must go through the same convolutions as before.

Now this is where my speculation is the most tenuous, but though the ammonia content rose, the Corys and mollies who were already there were somewhat used to that gradual shift in water quality. The guppy females, added a week later about at the probable new ammonia spike were not used to that dangerous water chemistry.

If fish are sort of accustomed to certain conditions, they can put up with a lot of abuse. New arrivals, already stressed by the process of being netted out of someone's tank, plunked into a plastic bag, put into a dark bag or box (though this actually is somewhat calming) and then acclimated to the new water chemistry (even if this takes an hour) may be shocked by the relatively impure water and different chemistry.

Several years ago there was an interesting discussion along this line on the Rainbowfish mailing list. (Rats! I can't find the original discussion nor a summary I gave here.) The basic point, confirmed by a number of very able aquarists, was that at a certain variable time (measured in years), one did not want to add new fish to "old" tanks because the darn chemistry of those old tanks was likely to lethally shock the new arrival. Old (3-10 year running) aquariums can be rehabilitated and their residents can be acclimated to newer tanks, though the process may take hours or even more than a day. Isn't it ironic that very new tanks (under 6 months) and long established aquariums are among the hardest to acclimate new fish to!

Your females sitting on the bottom is a classic example of nitrogen poisoning. I have carried on about this several times and you can get more on the topic of nitrogen poisoning by Googling Guppylog for that topic.

But basically what happens is that as the level of nitrogenous stuff in the tank (ammonia, nitrites or even nitrates) grows, it also increases in the fish's blood. Unfortunately the gills are awfully good at establishing equilibrium of whatever is in the tank's water and the fish's blood. These substances will prevent the hemoglobin from being able to effectively pick up and deliver enough oxygen to the fish. In effect they will slowly die of suffocation. That is why their movement slows to a stop.

This is also mentioned, in a different context, way down at the bottom of
http://www.guppylog.com/story/2006/5/20/16443/6233

Female livebearers, which are about to drop fry, indeed are breathing for more than one. They also weigh more than a male guppy. Therefore their oxygen needs are greater. I will admit surprise that the mollies weren't in that situation, though I'm sure glad they weren't.

I had a somewhat similar experience in an Endler's tank where one warm summer morning, I found four large and very dead female Endler's livebearers, a.k.a. Poecilia wingei. The smaller females, males and fry looked fine. The dead females, like yours, had no mark upon them. There were a couple dozen small fish in that ten-gallon tank. (I think it was Ginny Eckstein who suggested that that fish be called "The Endless Livebearer.")

The tank had no filter. I was using a layer of duckweed  (the world's fastest reproducing flowering plant) as a sort of ammonia sponge. As near as I can tell the duckweed became so thick that at night, when plants quit producing oxygen and actually reabsorb a little of it, the relatively thick 1/2 inch of duckweed cut off any significant oxygen exchange with the surface and the largest females suffocated. I threw out the vast majority of the duckweed and kept it limited. The younger females grew large with no more fatalities. Once my curiosity was satisfied that one could keep a thin layer of duckweed without harming females, I got rid of it all and replaced the duckweed with other greenery, which did not block the surface.

I would be willing to bet that a number of active and just viewing Guppylog people have had these mystery deaths when too many new acquisitions were added to an aquarium at one time. All of us have "eyes bigger than our fish tanks" and sometimes we get ahead of the biological processes when adding neat, new fish.

A good rule of thumb is to never more than double the fish population or body mass in an aquarium during any six-week period. Some people, using lots of plants, militant and frequent water changes and ammonia moving substances in the filters can get away with that - sometimes. The guppies also get away with that as they drop fry and the fry grow, but it is a very gradual process and the aquarium and beneficial bacteria seem to be able to adjust.

Hope this is of some use. Please don't add any new fish for a while. :)

All the best!
uncle scott



Female guppy fatalities | 6 comments (4 topical, 2 editorial, 0 hidden)
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