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More jumpers, water changes, and massive deaths

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By PeterW
from the oh-no-not-again department, Section Diaries
Posted on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 01:42:16 PM PST
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Its been a while since my last entry, but things have really turned weird lately.  I've had a couple of tanks where there have been mass suicides.  I've got another tank that I'm losing 5-10 fish per day, and various other dramas.



First of all, about two months ago I redid my water changer system.  My wife decided that she liked the taste of dechlorinated water, so I figured I'd better do something safer.  I dont think using PVC pipe with solvents is legal for drinking water here, and besides, I didn't want to find out the hard way that it wasn't a good idea.  So, I ended up doing something else instead.

Before, I had a 6 foot, 2-inch diameter carbon filter.  I had this directly inline with the pressure compensating drippers to fill the tanks, which had siphon overflow systems to keep the levels constant.  The problem was that the water was flowing through the filter uncomfortably fast.  I didn't have much excess capacity.  As the carbon absorbed chlorine and chloramine, the safety buffer came down.  After 5-6 months, I got the first traces of chloramine bleed through.  That wasn't bad for a few dollars worth of carbon!

I'd done some research since setting the system up and apparently there are some sort of guidelines for how long you need the water with chloramine to be in contact with the carbon to ensure that its all but gone.  Apparently about 15 minutes seems to be the good rule of thumb.  My old system, while it had very high grade carbon, only had a contact time of less than 1 minute.  Not good.

So, what I did instead was use the carbon filter on a slow trickle flow to fill a tank, then use a pressure pump and bladder tank to provide pressurized dechlorinated water where needed.

Instead of using a solenoid to turn the filter on/off, the system is always on now and has 60-70psi to work with.  Each location has its own solenoid, pressure regulator, non-return valve etc.  No solvents or PVC come into contact with drinking water.  The bulk of the equipment is outside now.  Its almost all FDA grade LLPDE pipe and fittings etc.  (The only thing that isn't is the original inline filter).

With a few other tweaks, this all works out now such that the water now has closer to 8 minutes of contact with the carbon.  I've checked the chloramine/chlorine levels with a Hach low level kit and its comeing out to as close to zero ppm as I can measure.

Everything else is unchanged.  My systems still change 10%-20% of their water every day, automatically, without human intervention. 30 (exactly!) tanks with no manual water changes is priceless.

However, trouble has been brewing.  First of all, our tap water has a very low conductivity/tds.  My fish essentially live in pure dechlorinated tap water.  I've had penguin biowheel filter motors jam for 4-6 weeks without me noticing, and no apparent ammonia buildup.  (I have ammonia alerts in every tank).

But, the downside is that the tds of the water in the tanks is very low.  For guppies, it is Very Low(TM).  I'm regularly mesuring it at 30-40ppm tds in the tanks.  I've read that guppies don't cope well with it below 110-120ppm tds or so.  I'm starting to agree.  I'm seeing a frighning incidence of dropsy-like symptoms.  I tried adding salt to increase the tds to about 200ppm, for a few months and new cases of dropsy symptoms pretty much stopped.  I let it drop down to 100ppm-ish, with no obvious effects.  Since then its crept down even more and the bloating has started again.    And this time, on males too.  Uh oh.

Back to the drawing board on that.  I think I'm going to mess with RO to see if the "waste" water is more suitable.  (I'll keep the product water for drinking, but it seems amusing to think of the pure filtered water as "waste").  I'm not sure if this is going to have enough of an effect with such pure municipal tap water.

But this problem isn't new.  The low tds water has been there for 8+ months now.  I'll deal with it somehow.

But then things got wierd over the last 1-2 weeks.

I moved a step ladder and found about 10 of my prized japan blue/double swords on the carpet, all crispy.  What the...??

A few days later, three of my eight bloodfin tetras jumped out.  I did a headcount and discovered that my 5 initial diamond tetras are now 11 diamond tetras.  So obviously somebody is happy with the tetra tank..

And a few days ago, the grandmother of all my japan blue/double swords jumped out!  She's the original sole survivor of the original set that repopulated the strain where I'd lost all the males.  What the ...?!?!?!!!?!

And this last week, my Pingu's have been dying off by the cupload.  Literally. 5 to 10 per day!  Admittedly, they've been acting wierd for 2 weeks now.  Usually they're frantic at feeding time, and they suddenly all went quiet.

I've rechecked all the water chemistry and I can't for the life of me see anything obvious.

I initially thought the camallanus worms might have been back, but I can't see any trace of them anywhere.  Not even in the corpses.

I'm completely stumped.  There are no obvious signs of illness.  One day the fish are swiming around with nothing obviously wrong, the next they're belly-up on the ground.  I know this is sudden because I noticed that one of my original 6 pingus was still around and appeared to be fine - she was the only one with  a particular obvious identifying feature.  The very next day she was dead.  I couldn't believe it.  The very fish I'd noticed the night before was dead the next day.  While I'm not 100% certain, I think that was a 12 hour kill. That's not good.  :-(

What is really strange is that the strange things appear to be confined to particular species or strains.  eg: why only the bloodfins, in a whole tank with 5 other tetra types? - especially when the others are breeding against the odds?!?  Why are just the jap blue/swords jumping?  Why are just the pingus dying so fast?

Things have been alarming enough that I'm starting to seriously consider taking some newborn fry from each of the important tanks and set up a backup colony elsewhere, just in case.  One of my neighbors has agreed to take some of the japan blue/double-swords as a backup colony.

The one and only thing that I can think of is some accidental ant poison contamination. Deltamethrin is seriously toxic to fish and I'm wondering if somehow the dust got into some of the tanks somehow.  This possibility is disturbing because the only way this could happen is if I had dust on my hands and carried it with me for some time...

Hmmm.

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More jumpers, water changes, and massive deaths | 4 comments (4 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Hey Peter! It's good to hear from you again! Your (none / 0) (#1)
by unclescott on Mon Aug 08, 2005 at 01:53:23 PM PST

efforts to extend the contact time with the tap water going through your carbon filter parallels efforts by others to also extend the surface time the tap water has with an introductory filter and also contact time the water in aquariums have with their biological filters.

When you get the water chemistry kinks worked out of your system, with some photos, I think you would have a great article you could publish with TFH or FAMA. The pay wouldn't even cover your expenses in creating your water changing system, but it would make a neat contribution to the hobby and be a feather in your hat.

When you last mentioned your concerns over TDS and hardness of your water, there was a parallel discussion going on the Rainbowfish Mailing List. I probably should have drawn your attention to that discussion.

There was a guy from the San Fransisco area who was constantly losing blue-eyes - members of Pseudomugil. The specific species he was having the most trouble dying were brackish water fishes. Whether it is because the water hardness is so different from what the species has developed in that it is trashing their osmoregulatory systems or whether it is because of things like mineral deficiencies - with skeletal or neurological consequences - he was trying to raise them in water which simply would kill them slowly. It was very frustrating watching that go on. I could relay several other stories like that. Guys like him are trying to speed shift several 100,000 years of evolution into a few weeks in his aquarium for a fish species.

The following GL thread asked if guppies were especially sensitive to light. Miskairal and I both wondered, drawing from different fish health books, if their problems were connected to a pH which was too low for that specific species.

Low hardness readings which might be great for discus, might be terrible for many other cichlids. What might be tolerable for livebearers from Micropoecilia is likely to be lethal for many members of Poecilia. Tetras from whitewater rivers are not going to be as tolerant of almost completely demineralized water as those from upstream in blackwater areas. (I'm curious about the original hardness readings from the habitats of your diamond and bloodfin tetras.)

Light Sensitivity???
http://www.guppylog.com/story/2005/7/21/131820/604

I think it was Burgess, Bailey and Excell's A-Z of Tropical Fish Diseases and Health Problems who also noted that acidosis - which sounds a lot like what your fish are up against - would take place at really different pH measures for different species from different waters. Things like that, along with mineral residues in your tanks (from different gravels? rocks? even plants?) may account for differing reactions in your different plants.

Can you settle your water in holding containers and remake it, so that your water reflects something resembling that of "guppy water"? There are products like Kent RO Right to remineralize and Kent pH Stable or Seaquest's Equilibrium.. The latter has "Its big advantage is replacement of essential electrolytes while not raising hardness and alkalinity. That's why it is so beloved by plant folks as well as killinuts of the rainforest persuasion."

It is also possible to work out a ratio of Rift Lake Salts per so many gallons of your tap water, which approaches the RO water produced elsewhere.

Also, you note that "I've read that guppies don't cope well with it below 110-120ppm tds or so."

Is that supposed to be a minimum tds of 100 PPM or a minimum hardness measurement of 100 PPM (calcium, iron, magnesium and the like)? Blackwater in the Amazon basin may have a TDS of 100, but have virtually no hardness. It may support discus and cardinal tetras, but no livebearers. ;)

I will look on the side for hardness readings from guppy habitats, but I wonder off hand, if 110 PPM TDS in most cases, isn't terrifically low if guppies are going to properly develop and reproduce.

All the best!
u.s.



Re: Hey Peter! It's good to hear from you again! Y (none / 0) (#2)
by PeterW on Mon Aug 08, 2005 at 03:46:05 PM PST

By 110-120ppm TDS, I mean total dissolved solids as measured by electrical conductivity.  That's rather non-specific about what Ions are dissolved in the water.  But that happens to be what the fish's osmoregulation system has to cope with and thats the big gremlin for me.

I don't recall where I read it.  It was an online Q&A from an author of a column in a printed magazine.  I'm testing with meters from here:  http://www.spectrapure.com/St_quality_p2.htm - specifically the 4TM.  It happens to be a really really nice gadget and relatively cheap.

For more specific things, the KH/GH is very very low.  KH is around 14ppm (<1 degree), GH likewise.  The source of the water is Sierra-Nevada mountain snow-melt.  There isn't much in there given that the total value of our water is in the 30-40ppm range.  This is significantly lower than the suggested lower-limit of 110-120ppm.

The utility adds Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH, caustic soda) to increase the pH, it arrives here at a pH of 9.2.  Even with the high pH, the water is so "soft" and so poorly buffered that it drops down really easily.  I have some digital pH meters that I keep tabs on things with, and I find the pH typically hovers between 7.4-7.6.  If I don't change the water as much, it goes acidic very quickly in the overloaded fry tanks.

I haven't seen any tanks go below 7.0 for over well over 6 months though.

I'm thinking more about the toxin angle.  The more I think about it, the more it seems to fit.  The tank with the worst deaths also happens to be the one I recently gravel vacuumed the most.  If I somehow had some of the ant dust on my hands or on the pipe or something, that could certainly explain it.  The death rates in the various tanks is suspiciously coinciding with the amount of vacuuming they've had in the last two weeks....

We have major ant problems at the moment.  They've found the spilt flakes and everything.  aargh.

[ Parent ]



I had hoped to get you some field study data (none / 0) (#3)
by unclescott on Tue Aug 09, 2005 at 07:31:44 AM PST

to show how little 120 ppm TDS is in water. Sort of like spitting in rainwater and you have 120 PPM TDS.

Of course, that is poetic license. Or something.

I still think you are running way too little mineral content for livebearers, both in terms of KH and DH and who knows what else. That water,as mentioned, is lethel to many rainbowfishes and North American killies, which like the livebearers, are secondary fresh water fish.

When I have wanted to spawn "difficult" rainforest killies, I have rebuilt the RO water to a hardness (GH or DH) of 80PPM or 4-5 DH. Using the old Aquastock Aquarium Company's Rift Lake Cichlid Salt, that gave a TDS measure of 400 PPM - including sulphates, a little sodium chloride (which shows not at all as KH or DH or as influencing pH), phosphates and any bugs which fell in.

It would be possible to halve that water with more RO, to get a DH of 40 PPM and a TDS of 200 to 300 PPM for some real "problem fish.". I can't hold that long withpout frequent water changes though. Even though those are fish which come from native waters with almost no measureable hardness or TSD (meaning under TDS 100 or 200 PPM), and though those may be fish who tolerate a pH as low as 5 in the wild, it is very difficult keeping their tank stable in the artificial and over fertilized bounds of an aquarium. (One doesn't have several square miles of a rainforest water table to come to one's aid and dilute the water.)

So if I can endanger or cause jumpy killies and tetras (and we're not even talking about the more   sensitive tetras like the bloodfins) in water with more mineral than you are providing, do you see what guppies, which are used to a usual pH of 7 and above and can tolerate hardnesses which can approach brackish water (maybe even 1000 PPM hardness and well over that in terms of TDS down stream) are up against?

They are jumping because they "feel" that they will die in the soft, demineralized, deficient water you are giving them.

Sorry to sound so negative, but despite the wonders you are working with water changes, I feel your guppies are really at risk in that water.

All the best!
unc

[ Parent ]



Re: I had hoped to get you some field study data (none / 0) (#4)
by PeterW on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 01:15:36 PM PST

Just to be clear, the carbon filter isn't removing much from the water besides the volatile chemicals (chlorine, chloramine and various volatile organic compounds).  The inbound TDS seems to be typically in the 41-45ppm range, while the outlet TDS is typically in the 38-42ppm range.  It varies through the year because the source water changes as the origin of the supply shifts from surface snow melt runoff to subterranian streams with different mineral content.

And yes, I know its unacceptably low.  I'd been manually adding salts (and I have a 64oz bottle of liquid RO-right as well) to raise it.  They seem happier in the 200-300ppm TDS range.

Unfortunately, we're "blessed" with excessively pure tap water.  I either have to let the waste products build up by reducing the change rate (and risk pH crashes) or mess with the chemistry of the water.

My system design allows for modifications to use a TDS controller and peristatic pump to add of some sort to add liquid concentrate to the water, but I'd really like to see what I can do with an RO membrane first   I'm hoping that the "waste" water will be enough to help.

The advantage is that there are no chemical additives to run out of.  The disadvantage is that it magnifies any undesirable contents of the water too.  Fortunately they're really really low to start with.

BTW: I **think** I read somewhere that one of the byproducts of a carbon filter like this is dissolved nitrogen gas in the water, that being a byproduct of the breakdown of the ammonia in the chloramine.  I'm not sure about this.

BTW2: thanks for the comment about the bloodfins being particularly sensitive.  That would exaplain the "why them?" part of the original post.

Meanwhile, I think I'll reduce the change rate and go for some crushed coral to increase the buffering as insurance against pH crashes.


[ Parent ]



More jumpers, water changes, and massive deaths | 4 comments (4 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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