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Health and Medicine
By GeorgeJa, Section Ask Guppylog
Posted on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 12:11:15 PM PST
Tags: (all tags)
Hi. I've just started into the hobby, and I'm already having problems. Let me give you my specs first. I have a 10 gallon glass tank with an UGF. I have two different live plant bunches in it, but I'm not real sure what they are. I have(or had) a chinese algae eater, 4 platties (2m and 2f), and 8 guppies(4m and 4f) in the tank. My tank has been running for about a month now with fish in it. It ran for a couple of weeks before I added the fish.




Recently, in the last week, the guppies have started to die off. First the females and now the males. I've noticed a white fuzzy looking substance on their mouths and bodies. I have some pictures of one my males showing this substance and if I can ever find my USB cable for my camera, I'll upload them.

Is this columnaris? And if so, what should I do.Can I use antibiotics and such a new tank? Also, of note, it's only the guppies showing signs of illness...

Please help. Also, the one remaining female guppy just started dropping fry.. I count 19 now. I'd like to have at least a few of them survive if possible...

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Help! | 35 comments (34 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)
Can we get an update? (none / 0) (#35)
by angelhologram on Thu Aug 11, 2005 at 05:52:53 AM PST

  How are your fish doing now? Were you able to get it treated? I hope all is well with you and your fishies.
*BEFORE you buy fish make sure you understand what "Cycling" a tank means <- quoted from miskaral* ~Trying to make a difference one fish at a time~


Is this what you're talking about? (none / 0) (#24)
by lomelindi on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 06:07:05 PM PST

I know this isn't neccesarily pertinent to the treatment, but since Scott said he couldn't see the fungus, I had to ask.. is what I have circled what you mean?  And in that case.. are we sure that this is columnaris?  All cases I've see have been roughly flat against the body.  This kind seems to be extending away quite.. a bit.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v610/lolonque/fungus.jpg
(When I went to photobucket to post that, I intially typed "fungusbucket.com" because of the image title.  Ew.



Re: Is this what you're talking about? (none / 0) (#30)
by angelhologram on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 07:35:37 PM PST

Thank you lomelindi for the enhanced view!
That does indeed look more like true fungus, but in the original post he mentioned fungus on their mouths. I wish we could have seen a picture of these also to see whether it was also true fungus possibly caused by running into objects in the tank, the side of the tank, the net while being moved etc. or if it was cotton mouth. Call Jungle and ask whether you can do water changes and use an ammonia lock during treatment. While you have them on the phone also ask if it is effective against the columnaris form of mouth fungus. The good news is that even if the mouth fungus is Columnaris it is the easier form to treat as long as you catch it quickly before it moves on to the much more virulent "saddleback" type.
here's some links to Columnaris pics
http://www.fishpalace.org/columnaris_noodles.jpg
http://www.petfish.net/columnaris.htm
http://www.fishjunkies.com/Diseases/columnaris.php
http://www.dyrarikid.is/textar/imgs/diseases06-2.jpg
http://www.drta-archiv.de/Diagnose/Krankheiten/images/columnaris01.jpg
Now some for true fungus (Saprolegnia)
http://www.elacuarista.com/secciones/images/saproleg_dorsal.jpg
http://www.aquariomania.com.br/images/achlya_001.gif
http://www.aquar.cz/otocinclus_21.jpg
http://www.acquaportal.it/Articoli/Dolce/MalattieAlghe/malattie/IMAGES/funghi_neon.JPG
http://www.worldcichlids.com/diseases/images/fungus.jpg
Ok, so I jus figured that as long as I'm looking all of this up I may as well throw in a link to Jungle Labs home page
http://www.junglelabs.com/
and here's there other info
Jungle Laboratories Corporation
120 Industrial Drive, Cibolo, TX 78108
(210) 658-3503

*BEFORE you buy fish make sure you understand what "Cycling" a tank means <- quoted from miskaral* ~Trying to make a difference one fish at a time~
[ Parent ]


Re: Is this what you're talking about? (none / 0) (#27)
by GeorgeJa on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 06:31:53 PM PST

Yes, that is what I'm talking about. I'm also still not quite sure it was columnaris. Some of the symptoms the fish were showing could be explained by the high ammonia content as well as columnaris. I think we can be sure, however, that it is some type of fungus. So, hopefully the fungus treatment I bought will knock it out.

[ Parent ]


Re: Help! (none / 0) (#16)
by angelhologram on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 05:59:45 AM PST

I just thought of something, judging by your name do you possibly live in Georgia? If so and your in the southern part of the state maybe I can meet you at the state line and give you some cycled water and gravel from my tank. I can guarantee it has no disease and it would really help you with getting that 5 set up for the fry.
*BEFORE you buy fish make sure you understand what "Cycling" a tank means <- quoted from miskaral* ~Trying to make a difference one fish at a time~


Re: Help! (none / 0) (#17)
by GeorgeJa on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 08:28:48 AM PST

No. I'm actually from Georgia, but I reside in Texas now. Thanks for the offer though.

[ Parent ]


Re: Help! (none / 0) (#4)
by lomelindi on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 05:28:11 PM PST

Have you changed any of the water since you got the tank?  That was my first mistake with mine.  Before this 10-gallon, I had a 29-gallon which I have regretfully lost since.  The higher-volume tanks must be more forgiving with water changes, because my fish's health suffers if I don't do weekly or bi-weekly 40-50% changes.  As far as immediate things to do, I would suggest that.

Your tank is overstocked, and will be even moreso with all those fry.  I agree with previous suggestions.. get them out.  Right now, I have five fry in a two-gallon tank meant for bettas.  It has a very weak underground filter, and I have to change the water constantly, but they're thriving.  I of course don't mean to keep them in much longer, though... remember, one inch of fish to one gallon of water max, unless you're a water-changing superhero.  Even then, be careful.  You want to take them out if you want to keep them at all.. but I would seriously give thought to finding a bigger tank as those guys grow up.

Let's see... if you click "Immediate Help," and scroll down to "Columnaris" (Which I think this might be.. it's some sort of fungal infection anyway) there is some great stuff there.

http://www.guppylog.com/story/2003/9/17/113521/444
Try that, particularly.  All the way down at the bottom, Uncle Scott has some great advice.

I would suggest investing in a good water testing system, because I suspect your levels are out of range.  Keep in mind, also, that you should be careful about dumping in various antibiotics and medicines, because as far as I can see, it can sometimes do as much harm as help.  They kill all the helpful bacteria that should be regulating your water.  A couple of my fish died as a result of the ammonia spikes after.

So, yes.  Water changes, water changes, water changes.  Treat the changed water and everything else that comes in contact with the water as a typhoid Mary if you have other tanks.  I'll let other people give advice on actual medicines and the subject of salt baths, as I had very little luck with mine.



Re: Help! (none / 0) (#5)
by GeorgeJa on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 07:20:56 PM PST

Hi Lomelindi. Thanks for your reply. As for your questions...

I was told by several people not to change the water in my tank for the first few months so the nitrogen cycle could get fully underway. However, as soon as my fish started dying off suddenly, I began doing 25% changes every other day on the advice of a friend. I started that last Friday night. So, it's been changed 3 times(Friday, Sunday, Tuesday), and I have water aging for another change tomorrow. However, this doesn't seem to be helping because every morning when I wake up, another guppy has succumbed to this fungus or whatever it is.

I'm beginning to agree with the whole "get the fry out now!" argument. I think I'll go to Wal-Mart tonight and see what I can find to accomadate them for the time being.

I had my water tested at the fish shop and the nitrate levels were slightly high. Other than that, everything looked good. I will definately invest in some testing supplies of my own though.

As for medication, I'm still not sure on what to do. Salt? I'm not sure what the "hardness" of my local water is... Anti-biotics? What? That male from the pictures just died so the only one remaining showing visible signs of the illness is the female with the mouth-fungus or whatever it is. The two remaining males seem to still be in good health as are the other fishes. Anybody got any suggestions?

[ Parent ]



Re: Help! (none / 0) (#7)
by GeorgeJa on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 09:19:06 PM PST

Just an update... I went to Wallie World and bought some supplies. I bought a 5 gallon tank to hold the fry for a while. It came with a micro-filter. Do I need air pumping into it too?

Also, I bought some test strips and tested the water in my current tank. Here are the results...

nitrate <20
nitrite ~1
hardness  150-300
alkalinity  ~300
ph   7.2-7.8
ammonia 6.0

The nitrite and ammonia levels are pretty extreme. I also bought some Jungle brand fungal treatment (the litty fizzy tabs), but I'm not so sure whether or not I should use them if they increase the ammonia levels... Should I do a large water change first?

Thx in advance.

[ Parent ]



Continue the current pace of water changes. (none / 0) (#8)
by unclescott on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 09:34:13 PM PST

Maybe one more and then medicate.

Just don't feed them, or feed them much. Less food in, less waste out and a lot less ammonia.

Those are pretty impressive DH and alkalinity levels, but for now don't worry about them that much. FYI, ammonia is more dangerous at a higher pH (influenced by the higher alkalinity level). I guess that reinforces the idea of that additional water change.

I'm really impressed that you picked up on the earlier wonderful comments and charged out to get that stuff.

Is there another aquarist who could give you 5 gallons of seasoned water? Maybe that isn't realistic, but it would be nice. A little air will not hurt the fry either.

I would also treat the fry tank too, even though that Jazzes up their nitrogen cycle. Fry can be even more vulnerable to illnesses sometimes.

If I lived nearby (I'm in Chicagoland) I'd fill two carboys with water and bring a handful of Najas (an "ammonia sponge" plant) over.

ATB and good luck again! It sounds like you are doing everything you can to manufacture your good luck! :)

unc

[ Parent ]



Re: Continue the current pace of water changes. (none / 0) (#12)
by miskairal on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 02:40:20 AM PST

With Ammonia levels that high I'd be doing a big  water change NOW and adding something like ammolock.

Andrews, Exell and Carrington's Fish Health book states
"Ideally, keep the total ammonia and nitrite levels below 0.1mg/litre"

and this

At pH 7.5 and temp of 25°c the "Maximum recommended level of total ammonia" is 1.2 (taken from a chart).

I also came across this which might be of use
http://www.goldfishinfo.com/ammonia.htm

Good Luck
miskairal

(Scott L. - I like this auto format feature, much easier to use)
--
Repeat after me,
I will read the Immediate Help
[ Parent ]



Re: Continue the current pace of water changes. (none / 0) (#14)
by GeorgeJa on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 05:31:30 AM PST

Yes. This sounds like a good idea. Unfortunately, I didn't know I would need anything like that when I went to Wal-Mart last night. So, I'll have to find something today I guess. Is it safe to add that in at the same time as the meds?

[ Parent ]


Re: Continue the current pace of water changes. (none / 0) (#21)
by miskairal on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 03:45:32 PM PST

What stuns me is that your petshop said your tests were ok except maybe nitrate a little high and then your own tests showed lethal levels of ammonia.

I'm not sure if you can add them at the same time. Unc;e's reply further down indicates they may contain formalin and some medications also contain formalin which might mean double dosing them.

You really need to get the ammonia levels down to be able to treat the disease though. The fish will be stressed by the ammonia, their immune systems compromised and therefore they will be less able to fight off or prevent disease. I think what I'm trying to say is that the high ammonia is probably what triggered the outbreak of disease which the fish might have been able to avoid if they hadn't been hit with the ammonia high.

Most of us arrive at guppylog because of a health problem with our fish. We then learn all about water quality. Pity the petshops don't teach us the water quality first or even that we need to learn about it :(

Once this all settles down though, you will have some surviving fish and you will know how to keep them healthy. Be very careful then what new fish you buy in so you don't repeat the whole thing. Guppygirl taught me what she was taught as a child. Don't add more than 2 fish to a tank, even an established tank) at any one time. That way the nitrogen cycle has a chance to catch up to the fish load.

If I were you I would be doing a massive water change and not adding any ammonia locking stuff while medications are being used. A 25% water change now and repeat every 12 hours maybe. This would put your whole cycling thing behind BUT the fish might survive it. I'd test for ammonia once or twice a day too. HOWEVER, don't do this until unc;e or angel or someone has a chance to reply. Just because it's what I'd do doesn't mean it is right and I don't have to worry about seasoning water as I don't have access to a town water supply. I dont' think it is a good idea to make a dramatic change to water chemistry in one hit which is why I would do it every 12 hours.
--
Repeat after me,
I will read the Immediate Help
[ Parent ]



Re: Continue the current pace of water changes. (none / 0) (#26)
by GeorgeJa on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 06:28:15 PM PST

Well, I just got back from the store. The product I bought to get rid of the ammonia is made by Kent. I'm not sure what the active ingredients in it are, but it says that it contains "complex hydrosulphate salts" so don't get it in your eyes, yada yada yada. It claims to get rid of chlorine chloramine and ammonia...
The active ingredients in the medication I bought are nitrofurazone, furazolidone, and potassium dichromate.

I just tested the ammonia levels in the water again. The level in the main tank has gone down around 5, probably due to the massive water change I gave it before putting the meds in. The level in the fry tank is between .25 and .5. So, I put the Kent product in the main tank, but I guess I can hold off a while on the fry tank.

[ Parent ]



Re: Continue the current pace of water changes. (none / 0) (#23)
by angelhologram on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 04:28:17 PM PST

  I don't know if you can use any type of ammonia locking agent while medicating or not. What you may want to do is call WalMart or your local LFS and see what brands they carry and then call the manufacturer. I know Mardel has told me that all of their products can be used with each other but I'm not sure if they make an ammonia locker.
  Absolutely NO water changes while medicating the tank, if you want to change the water then do a huge one before the first treatment. Also, use the medication for the amount of time indicated on the packaging even if you no longer see signs of infection. Once treatment is complete do a 25% water change as needed to keep those ammonia levels down unless it peaked during treatment and is on it's way back down on it's own, in which case IMHO I would just let it continue naturally.
*BEFORE you buy fish make sure you understand what "Cycling" a tank means <- quoted from miskaral* ~Trying to make a difference one fish at a time~
[ Parent ]


Re: Continue the current pace of water changes. (none / 0) (#25)
by miskairal on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 06:21:58 PM PST

No water changes?
But how can you treat dead fish? How can you treat fish that are fighting for their lives with such high ammonia?

Get the water quality safe, then treat and feed only a tiny amount.

I've always done water changes during treatments (prior to each repeat) but then I don't have access to antibiotics for fish either. Most treatments are repeated daily or 2nd daily or whatever b/c that is when the level of antibiotic or medication would have fallen below therapeutic levels. If it's a daily treatment then you should be able to do daily water changes immediately prior to each treatment.

You should be able to add the amount of medication required to the fresh water volume of each water change if repeat doses are less often than daily and you want to do daily water changes.
--
Repeat after me,
I will read the Immediate Help
[ Parent ]



Re: Continue the current pace of water changes. (none / 0) (#29)
by angelhologram on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 06:51:08 PM PST

  I can only speak for what to do with the Maracyn, Maracyn2, and Tri-Sulfa made by Mardel. I had done water changes originally with the Maracyn and when I spoke to the Dr at Mardel he said that even though I too had dangerously high ammonia levels at the time to stop water changes until after the medication. With those products you dose daily and it's something about not having the correct level of medication in the tank when you do water changes. It's not enough consistantly to kill the bacteria and in fact will build up their immunity making that particular medication ineffective against them.
  I guess it's like when they tell you not to drink alcohol when taking antibiotics. I would really like to unwind tonight and read a good book while enjoying a nice glass of red wine but the thought of even possibly giving this strep throat an additional foothold is enough to curb my appetite for any such indulgence. It's been a long week lol.
*BEFORE you buy fish make sure you understand what "Cycling" a tank means <- quoted from miskaral* ~Trying to make a difference one fish at a time~
[ Parent ]


Re: Continue the current pace of water changes. (none / 0) (#28)
by GeorgeJa on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 06:34:54 PM PST

The meds are supposed to stay in the water for four days. But I guess it would make sense to be able to add the meds to the water that you're going to put into the tank for a water change... I dunno.

[ Parent ]


That can get really expensive. We do that with (none / 0) (#32)
by unclescott on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 10:15:30 PM PST

salt sometimes. Someone puts in a tablespoon of salt in a 10-gallon tank. When three gallons is taken out and three gallons is put in, a little less than a teaspoon would be put in. Otherwise the salt build up in that tank could be very harmfull.

It is possible to do what you wanted, pro-rating what you are changing into the aquarium. I would suggest that you just feed your fish very sparingly or, in the case of the adults, maybe not at all.

Another thing which could be done, if you had a plant supply, is to dump a fast growing, expendable plant in there to take up some of the ammonia. I have done that with Najas, knowing that some of that particular Najas would be thrown out with the treatment water. Hornwort so often falls apart in a matter of minutes, especially with the medicinal dyes, that it would not work that way.

I would defer to the feelings and research of others here and counsel caution against using a water conditioner while medicating. On my own fish, I might still try it if signs of ammonia poisoning were evident. Better though, to cut way back on feeding.

If the problem is real fungus (Saprolegnia or Achyla), it is consuming dead tissue. Sometimes a salt bath will cause the fungus to life off. Clean water and antibiotics to prevent secondary infection have helped some fish heal.

A quick Googling of the contents of George's purchase suggests that nitrofurazone works by killing bacteria or preventing their growth. It can even be placed on burn wounds. Furazolidone, also works on controling bacteria and protozoa, to encourage healing. Potassium dichromate is a strong oxidizer. Is it supposed to burn away the fungus so the other antibiotics can protect the fish while it heals?

Like formalin and several of the medicinal dyes, postassium dichromate can be a carcinogen, Please follow the instructions closely George and do not over dose. Touch it as little as possible. On general principle, wash your hands well when you are finished. I would do that after changing water out of that tank too. :)

I often scrub down when finishing with the fish, especually if a nasty tank was involved.

Has anyone experience with those substances? Or a better understanding of what they do?

Columnaris and even fish TB (Mycobacteriosis) can be confused with fungus, certainly by amateurs like ourselves. I'm not sure we can always tell them apart. They too result from the same declining water conditions and, to the extent that they can be dealt with, are also dealt with by using antibiotics. Might as well give it a shot George.

Good luck and all the best!
uncle

[ Parent ]



Re: That can get really expensive. We do that with (none / 0) (#33)
by GeorgeJa on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 10:50:45 PM PST

You mentioned naja earlier. I found some for sale on Aquabid. Has anybody had any experience with this website? I know it's an "ebay-type" auction site, but that's about all I can gather from it... Is the seller community there pretty reputable?

[ Parent ]


Many of them probably are. (none / 0) (#34)
by unclescott on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 06:23:55 PM PST

I&#8217;m a little disturbed at some of the sloppy and erroneous nomenclature in the killie section. One livebearer breeder, who probably produces good fish, doesn&#8217;t know the difference between wild and domestic strains of livebearer. I think you want to sound out some of them.

A handful of Najas, (not Naja)  unless one has a big hand or it is a tightly packed handful, is not a whole lot. On the other hand (or is that fin?), if it grows, a handful of Najas can become a lot more pretty quickly in a hardwater tank.

In that respect, the guy who was offering cuttings of other plants as a further enticement, also makes the point that if it is in favorable conditions, those other plants will grow and cuttings can be taken, meaning more plants can be drawn from the few starters. Seldom will every plant prosper, if you buy 4 different ones, unless you have really good lighting and work at feeding the plants. However most from such a package should do well.

The other day there was someone offering Najas (probably N. guadalupensis) and then they began talking about Riccia. Riccia fluitans, also called Crystalwort, is a beautiful floating plant, which is sometimes is grown (under a mesh) as a striking ground cover. It is a little more demanding than Najas. I get a little nervous about someone who can&#8217;t tell two quite distinctive plants from one another.

By the way, there are several species of Najas (the naiads) native to the US. The aquarium strain of Najas guadalupensis, also called the Southern naiad, seems to be native to Florida. Because it grows so well, I would strongly advise never just throwing it out into a local water system.

Others here will have to address the reliability of specific Aquabid people. They also have a chat site, http://www.aquachat.com/  where I suppose you could ask around about sellers or even try to pick the brains of those who bother to go there.

I dropped by there a while back and encountered a catfish nut from Chicagoland, whom I met some years back. That was one of those happy coincidences.

The shipping costs they are asking for the Najas are less than if you drove a distance to someone&#8217;s house or a store.

All the best!
unc


[ Parent ]



Thank you miskairal, double dosing formulin (none / 0) (#22)
by unclescott on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 03:58:28 PM PST

doesn't sound too wise. Maybe George, medicate soon, as per miskairal's advice. Just don't feed very much. The saddleback form of columnaris, judging from GL testamony, which you have said and the literature, kills fast. Treatment needs to be done very soon. If the fish show the irritation caused by ammonia poisoning - check that chart miskairal found - then try the Amquel type stuff.

All the best!
u.s.

[ Parent ]



Re: Continue the current pace of water changes. (none / 0) (#10)
by GeorgeJa on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 09:52:24 PM PST

I sure wish you lived nearby. You seem very knowlegable, and I know I could use your help. =)
Thanks for the advice.

[ Parent ]


Re: Help! (none / 0) (#2)
by angelhologram on Wed Aug 03, 2005 at 04:01:14 PM PST

  I think I just had a flashback.
  Seriuosly though, if there is sickness in your tank remove your fry and put them somewhere else. When I treated my tank for Columnaris I didn't have anywhere to put mine so I had to put them in a little "death bowl" with just some airline tubing for airation and no filter. I changed basically ALL the water in it dialy (just left enough to cover the fry) by siphoning it out with airline tubing and making sure to get all debris from food and poop off hte bottom and sides of the bowl. This takes a lot of commitment but I was able to have all but one survive until they could be put back in the larger tank. They now have a 5gal I keep for just them. Good luck with your fish and fry, I hope it isn't Columnaris.
*BEFORE you buy fish make sure you understand what "Cycling" a tank means <- quoted from miskaral* ~Trying to make a difference one fish at a time~


Help! | 35 comments (34 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)
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