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Clarification on Camellanus?

Health and Medicine
By alliani
from the alliani department, Section Ask Guppylog
Posted on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 12:12:36 PM PST
Tags: (all tags)
Sorry - this will probably be fairly long-winded.
(Double checked... did I mention I am prone to understatement?)



History:
I set up my 20 gallon aquarium late January/early February 2005 and was thrilled when all the fish (1 male guppy, 2 female guppies, 2 male platies & a Chinese sucker fish) survived the "cycling" stage.  I started off with weekly 20% water changes with RO (reverse osmosis) water and full chemical tests and after 6 weeks changed to bi-weekly water changes with (approximately) monthly chem tests and add 1 tsp. aquarium salt to each gallon of water.  I keep the temperature between 77 and 80 degrees.

I've lost a few fish, added a few fish - lost one entirely (as in MIA over-night, never to be seen again type of lost) and I now have the aforementioned platies & sucker fish, 3 males, 6 females and 304 fry.  Give or take.  I've removed the fry into two additional 10 gallon tanks.

Everything was okay until several weeks ago when I noticed something protruding from the vent of one of the females.  After several days' online research I concluded it was nematodes.  ::shudder::

I visited forums & mailing lists and asked a bunch of questions - then lost the bookmarks in the computer reformat and have no idea where I'd gone.  I tried every anti-parasite product I could find in PetSmart, and asked the aquarium store owner about nematodes to which his reply was, "what are nematodes?".  ::boggle::  I called the vets and was told to check PetSmart.

In response to all the anti-parasitic treatments, these little buggers acted like I was feeding them candy.  I even tried some dog/cat dewormer I had on hand figuring if I killed the fish in an attempt to cure them it was better than watching them die and doing nothing.

Then I found information on l HCL.  Great!  A product to look for!  Nothing in PetSmart contained levamisole.  I live in a farming community, my husband's uncle raises cattle, he gets his vet products from a local livestock store... They, at least, had heard of levamisole/levasole and once carried it, but didn't have any.

By this time other fish were displaying symptoms, as well, and the first one I'd noticed as being infected is getting pretty emaciated.  I'd lost 2 females to "mysterious causes" in the last week, I'm assuming it was probably related.

I finally found some levasole online & ordered it.  3 days later I get an e-mail telling me it's backordered.  Fish are getting sicker!  I cancelled that order and tried again, $18 for 28 grams of powder, much more than I need, but it finally got here and I treated them (1/2 gram in the 20 gallon tank, 1/4 gram in each of the 10 gallons).

Now:
I treated them roughly a week ago.  The day following treatment the protrusions seemed to be "drying up", they didn't seem as plump and might be curling a bit.  Day 2 they were definitely thinner.  Day 3, thinner still, but still protruding from some, but not all, the infected fish.

Day 4 I noticed light pink (no blood in the gut) worms crawling on the glass.  Some were up to 2" long and extremely skinny (about the diameter of a .05mm mechanical pencil lead) - these travelled rod straight & slowly, you could hardly see that they were moving unless you really watched.  But there was another kind of worm, much shorter and plumper with a little more coloring and these "slithered" across the glass fairly quickly.  The longest of these maybe 1/4" long.  To me they look to be shaped like leeches, though I've never seen one of these stretch out like a leech will.

Upon closer inspection I saw both these types of worms of various sizes in the gravel (more of a river pebble than aquarium gravel), on the glass and occasionally the long/skinny ones free floating.

Day 5, not much of a change, though I noted that the vent areas of the fish that had once been swollen have all returned to normal.  There are still some "hairs" protruding from the vents and one male seems "chesty" or "pot bellied".

Day 6, yesterday, still live worms in the tank and I put more levasole in it.  I didn't measure, I used a tiny spoon that came with a brine shrimp kit for measuring aquarium salt; this looked to be about 1/2 gram as measured before.

Today (Friday) I saw one live short/fat worm crawling along the gravel apparently unaffected.  There are still hair-like protusions from some of the fish, though fewer than we began with and still "dried up" looking.  13 more fry.  I haven't had charcoal filters in any of the tanks in forever, my Chinese sucker fish is getting huge and the other two tanks have a good amount of algae & cloudiness.  The main tank has algae growing on the leaves of plants and inside tubes.

I don't see any of the other live worms in the tank, but if one's alive I'm certain there are more.

And, so, to the point!
Questions:

Any ideas what this other (short/fat) kind of worm may be?

How long can the worms survive without a food source (if I transfer the fish, clean the tank, how long before I can be certain they won't be reinfected by the tank/gravel)?

Can these same, prolific parasites infect humans?  I assume if they could someone would have mentioned it, but as a paranoid mom I have to ask.

Can the snails and/or ghost srhimp carry these and reinfect the tank?  I have them isolated at the moment but if they're carriers I may as well flush them.

The fry don't seem to be affected at all, though I know I've transferred water from the infected tank to the fry tanks.  Are they "safe" due to their size?  While I can't see a worm caring whose blood it took, maybe they're too small to swallow the ones needing to be swallowed?

If the levasole only paralyzes the worms (and I realize this hasn't been confirmed), how could you actually get rid of them?

How frequently can/should I treat with levasole?  Obviously twice in 7 days hasn't affected the fish at all (other than the increase in energy due to decrease in worms).

Is the dosing of the levasole correct?

Should I add more levasole with each water change for "x" number of weeks?  Does it evaporate/neutralize after a time?

Sorry it's so verbose, just want to make sure all the necessary info was included.

TIA!
Lori

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Clarification on Camellanus? | 12 comments (12 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: Clarification on Camellanus? (none / 0) (#1)
by Scott Lockwood on Fri May 06, 2005 at 01:24:06 PM PST

Everyone, please take notes: THIS is a good submission. Good submissions ask new questions that aren't already answered, or aren't already completely answered in the Immediate Help section. A big thanks to Lori for such a great submission to the site.

"I love to visit PetSmart's Tropical Fish Dept. to see what new diseases are around today." -- inkmaker



... UPDATE ... on Camellanus (none / 0) (#12)
by alliani on Wed Jun 15, 2005 at 03:55:33 PM PST

I've recently been contacted with questions regarding my infestation of the lovely and oh-so-fun camallanus.

In answer to those questions, the levamisole hydrochloride is a godsend, my biggest complaint being the effort required in locating the stuff. Nothing else worked for me, even fish food containing levamisole.

The dosage settled upon was 5g per 100 gallons. Easiest way to administer (IMO) is to dissolve the medication in a cupful of tank water and then add it directly to the tank (make sure all carbon filtration has been removed, first).

After medicating I noticed a change within a few days; there were live, pink worms in the tank and what worms were protruding from the vents were "dehydrated" looking - thinner and kinked up. Within a week no worms whatsoever, and within 2 to 2 1/2 weeks no more deaths related to camallanus.

Because I had such a bear of a time finding it, I'd like to post a couple of links that may be helpful to others (or myself in the future when I've lost all my bookmarks... again...).

The first place I ordered from was PBS Animal Health, but I got irritated when they e-mailed me a day after the whole ordering process and told me the stuff was back-ordered. Additionally the levamisole is in a tablet, which means you get binders along with medication - not a big deal but something some might want to keep in mind.

So I turned to Valley Vet. I received shipment within a few days and had more than enough for all three tanks (and it's in a powder form that dissolves quickly).

Both the above sites are located in the U.S., I haven't had much luck locating anything in Canada.

Hopefully this information will be of use to someone else who may be pulling out their hair! ;)

Thanks again to all for the advice I received here! Everyone was very helpful!

~Lori

[ Parent ]



Re: Clarification on Camellanus? (none / 1) (#6)
by inkmaker on Sat May 07, 2005 at 12:58:07 PM PST

The more words to the subject the better. It sounds like there are several different worms in your environment. Many of them are just there to scavenge the left overs and from what you are telling us there a lot of left overs.

The role of the Levamisole is to paralyze the Nematode and thus to kill it. The fish then needs to pass the dead worms. The Levamisole in the tank will kill all the stages of the Nematode as long as it is there in sufficient quantity. It takes only 36 hours to kill 99% of the worms both inside and free in the tank. The remaining living Nematodes can reinfect everything very soon given the opportunity.

Once you have managed to really do in the infestation, it is time to flush the septic tank. I don't mean a 20% water change twice a week. That reaches an equilibrium with the tank trash and really never gets rid of everything.

In the treatment I try to get the owner to understand that after the treatment is done they need to change ALL of the water. This removes the dead Nematodes, the dead other things and helps to reestablish good living conditions within the tank environment. One does not kill the bacteria and protozoa attached to the plants, walls and gravel with a water change and I wouldn't advocate a complete tank cleaning because there will be a recycling time and the fish keeper is putting the fish through a lot of stress.

 Change the water, all of it and then lets see what is left of the strange visitors in the tank.

The dead worms in the gut of the fish are the greatest cause of loss of fish after treatment. I am watching a young man now in CA with a Cichlid tank struggling with this. The Nematodes are dead but the fish are really having a hard time of it. Their guts are so full of dead clinging things they are rotting inside the fish. Bacteria, septicemia, gas bloating - all the nastiest one can think of.  Feeding the fish lots of live foods will generally move the stuff through the gut. Newly hatched brine shrimp is my best remedy for these small fishes.

Hope this helps.
http://www.InkForYourPrinter.com
[ Parent ]



Re: Clarification on Camellanus? (none / 0) (#10)
by alliani on Sun May 08, 2005 at 05:13:07 PM PST

Ah, got it.  Thanks!!

Yep, got my day cut out for me Monday.  ::sigh::

Would it be wise to treat any new guppies in a quarantine tank just to be on the safe side?

~Lori

[ Parent ]



Re: Clarification on Camellanus? (none / 0) (#7)
by guppygirl on Sun May 08, 2005 at 04:42:25 AM PST

Hi Lori,

It's guppygirl.

I agree with Scott L., this was a great submission.

I was able to follow what steps you have taken, and where you are now, very easily.

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!!

Don't mind "Da-Unc", "Grumpy uncle, go lie down." ;o)

Question, Are your fry and their tanks still asymptomatic?  No visible worms, or deaths?

My thought would be to(I know this sounds a bit nuts, but I'm hoping that your statement of 300+ fry is an exageration.) divide one of the ten gallon tanks in half, and move the other fry into this one.

Then I would move the remaining fish into the other 10 gallon tank so you could flush out the twenty gallon as the Inkmaker suggests.  

Before moving the sick fish into the ten gallon tank, however, remove ALL of the gravel, plants, and any decorations.

I know this sounds like a lot of work, and you might be thinking I'm from a different planet right about now.  But, there is a method to my madness.  

See, no matter what happens, your 20 gallon tank will have to be recycled.  My thought is that the sooner we can get that underway, the better the fish that survive will be in the long run.

If you are POSSITIVE that the gravel, et al. from the fry tank isn't infected, you could use that to jump start the cycling.  That's entirely your call, though.

Having the sick fish in an empty tank will help you to do a number of things better.

First, treating them will be easier, and so will isolating the infected equipment.

Second, removing any worms will be easier.

Third, observing their conditions will be easier.

Lastly, when all is said and done, you can clean out this one, and have a spare tank to use for a quarantine, or hospital tank for the future.

Oh, BTW, Happy Mother's Day, and please don't hate me.  You can always choose the option to ignore me. ;o)

gg
:o)

[ Parent ]



Re: Clarification on Camellanus? (none / 0) (#9)
by alliani on Sun May 08, 2005 at 05:07:37 PM PST

Question, Are your fry and their tanks still asymptomatic?  No visible worms, or deaths?

Correct, no visible worms or deaths in the fry tanks at all.  However, the're voracious little things and it wouldn't surprise me to lose one and have it become lunch.  :o/

My thought would be to(I know this sounds a bit nuts, but I'm hoping that your statement of 300+ fry is an exageration.) divide one of the ten gallon tanks in half, and move the other fry into this one.

Nope, 300+ isn't an exaggeration.  But I haven't actually counted survivors recently, that's just the count of live fry I've removed from the main tank to the fry tanks over the last ~3 months.  With that number I could lose a handful and never notice.  In fact I pulled 8 more fry out of the adult tank yesterday.  I've got one tank for small fry, and one for fry large enough to think newborn fry are snacks, so I can put the adults in with the larger fry without a problem.

Then I would move the remaining fish into the other 10 gallon tank so you could flush out the twenty gallon as the Inkmaker suggests.

::nod::  

Before moving the sick fish into the ten gallon tank, however, remove ALL of the gravel, plants, and any decorations.

Ah, something worked out for the good!  There aren't any gravel/plants in the fry tank  :)  I have one plastic plant "mat" in the "little fry" tank, but the other is completely unadorned.  I really only planned to have one aquarium, but I just can't leave the fry in the tank to fend for themselves!

I know this sounds like a lot of work, and you might be thinking I'm from a different planet right about now.  But, there is a method to my madness.

No, it makes sense.  I just don' wanna (I'll do it, but I'll whine and bitch a lot in the process).

<snip>

Oh, BTW, Happy Mother's Day, and please don't hate me.  You can always choose the option to ignore me. ;o)

Oh... someone picked up on my bitchiness.  LOL  Sorry.  :o/

I don't have any reason to hate you or ignore you!  Well, unless I'm just an irrational witch, and I can see how one might come to that conclusion.  :o/  Thank you for the suggestions!

Happy Mother's Day to everyone (even if you don't have kids, Happy Sunday to you).  Thanks to everyone forr all the advice & help, and I'll mark my calendar & try not to post during the first week of the month from now on!!  ;o)

~Lori

[ Parent ]



Hey Lori! Please read (none / 1) (#2)
by unclescott on Fri May 06, 2005 at 08:36:06 PM PST

http://inkmkr.com/Fish/CamellanusTreatment.pdf

Five grams of Levamisole will treat 100 gallons. Dose accordingly. Charles tried overdosing and it didn't hurt the fish, partly because anthelmintics will only dissolve to a certain strength, varying by medicine.

I realize we have so darn many entries in the Immediate Help section on Camallanus (it is the biggest section there), it is unwieldy. If you had had the time to read them, most of your questions would be answered and this space could be used to follow up the inevitable questions, which arise as we are treating internal worms.

By the way, Jungle's Internal Parasite med, according to PeterW, has an anthelmintic. If the meds are listed as eliminating flukes and the like, they just about have to have an anthelmintic in there. Don't know why companies are so hush-hush about contents. Probably trying to dazzel us peasents.

I can't believe the parade of worms in your tanks! Some may be even tapeworms. They shouldn't continue to live in the water if your dosage is correct. Um... you don't have activated carbon in a filter taking the medicine out almost as fast as you are adding it, do you?

No knowing what all those worms are, I don't know if they will survive w/o fish. Free swimming young Camallanus last less than a day w/o new hosts.

People in SE Asia, who sometimes eat raw or under cooked freshwater fish, have been parasitized by Camallanus cotti. (I was warned off from collecting in freshwater in Hawaii, in part because of cotti in their streams.) As the Immediate Help stuff notes, those people can be treated with anthelmintics, including Levamisole. (Small world!) If the worms were merely stunned, the dosage was inadequate.

Virtually all medicines were originally developed to help humans. Sometimes they were developed to help animals in commercial agricultural operations. I'm not a medical person, nor a fish pathologist, but would guess that none were originally developed to treat tropical fish.

Keep your children's fingers out of your aquariums if the kids are included to put fingers in their mouths. If they have been in the water and put fingers in mouths, please consult your pediatrician or family doctor!

Treat your snails and ghost shrimp or destroy them. If equipment was in a tank, leave it there for treatment or isolate it where there are no aquatic animals (fish, crustaceans, snails and other potential hosts) for a couple of days.

If your fry were in the tank with the adult guppies when the Camallanus were extending from the vents, they are infected. Treat them now or lose them in about three months. This is all explained in the Immediate Help stuff.

You shouldn't have to dose more than once, though I too might dose a second time.

If you are uncertain about the gravel (which can insulate residents somewhat) boil the stuff or toss it. Years ago my lady bought me a coated soup pot for boiling certain fish tank related items (gravel, peat moss, spawning mops...) That kept the fish goop out of her cookware. And it kept dish soap out of the aquariums. ;)

Hope this is useful. If you have time (On a weekend? With kids? Ha!) check out those other threads on Camallanus. Almost all of your original questions (except for the flood of worms in the tank) are dadressed there. You very probably will have follow-up questions and they will be dealt with as to the best of our ability. :)

All the best!
uncle scott

[ Parent ]



Re: Hey Lori! Please read (none / 1) (#3)
by alliani on Sat May 07, 2005 at 08:26:16 AM PST

I read the PDF.  I read the treads I could find.  I'm sorry I took up space that could be used for real questions, I'm sure routine housekeeping can rectify my mistake.

Lori

[ Parent ]



Re: Hey Lori! Please read (none / 0) (#5)
by Scott Lockwood on Sat May 07, 2005 at 09:44:20 AM PST

Don't appologize! That was a good submission, and I am greatful that you posted it! I look forward to other submissions like this one.

"I love to visit PetSmart's Tropical Fish Dept. to see what new diseases are around today." -- inkmaker
[ Parent ]



As one of the lesser organized persons in (none / 1) (#4)
by unclescott on Sat May 07, 2005 at 08:56:55 AM PST

the galaxy, I'm being too hard on you. Please pardon my grumpiness. Thank you for following up those references.

When that red haze of panic clouds our vision, we don't see as clearly or read as patiently as we would like. When the purple panic of too many obligations clouds my vision, on days like yesterday, I'm not much better off. ;)

Routine housekeeping may help us with data searches. Housekeeper will not help in the long run with internal parasites, which are often worms or Helminths. In the case of Camallanus, the guppies have them or they don't. That is what is so frustrating, even if we were to quarantine new purchases for a month, we probably would not notice Camallanus or cestodes (including tapeworms) or Capillaria. Once baby Camallanus are inhailed by fish, the fish are infected. Sooner or later, they are going to get gravely ill, perfect water condions or not.

Field studies have suggested that better water allows the fish to live longer and to drop more fry, in the wild, before they die. The camallanus will still get them sooner or later. And it probably will get their fry too, who will hopefully grow up and reproduce first. Indeed, fish collecte in the dry (or dryer) season in South America, are veritable museums of diseases rarely noticed in the wet season. That is a pretty awful cycle.

All the best, despite the gloom of worms.
uncle scott

[ Parent ]



Re: As one of the lesser organized persons in (none / 0) (#8)
by alliani on Sun May 08, 2005 at 04:35:19 PM PST

Actually, I had read the PDF and what threads I could find (here, there and yon) before I posted my questions.  I think my biggest problem was too much data, too many numbers & conflicting opinions which confused me, but with all info I did provide initially that I had left out.  :/

My apology was horribly sarcastic... however, considering I burst into tears this afternoon because I misplaced my car keys I think it's a safe assumption I'm a wee bit PMS and quite possibly a little touchy myself.  [eew, there's that sarcasm again]  So I apologize for my grumpiness as well, and we'll call it even?  ;)

Thank you for the information.  When I get the kids off to school tomorrow I guess I have the rest of my day planned.  XP

~Lori

[ Parent ]



Re: As one of the lesser organized persons in (none / 0) (#11)
by miskairal on Mon May 09, 2005 at 02:43:58 PM PST

Ripper post!
Welcome to guppylog Lori.

Off to add this to the Immediate help section.

Cheers
miskairal
--
Repeat after me,
I will read the Immediate Help
[ Parent ]



Clarification on Camellanus? | 12 comments (12 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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