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Dead from nothing I can see

Health and Medicine
By angelhologram
from the Shell department, Section Ask Guppylog
Posted on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 12:12:31 PM PST
Tags: (all tags)
I've read other posts but I didn't see any of the "physical" signs that had been mentioned



  The same day I added my new fish to my main tank I had purchased 4 more females and put them in my isolation tank. Saturday I noticed one of the females keeping to herself and becoming lethargic.I didn't notice anything physically wrong besides behavior, tested my water and evrything was normal. I talked to my pet store and they suggested adding melafix, which I did (added some to my main tank just in case also). I did a 25% water change, added salt, and increased the tank temp to 78 degrees. I kept careful watch on her Sat and Sun and there still wasn't any physical symptoms that I could see. Nothing apparent around the gills,no unusual color to her feces, fins weren't clamped, no fuzzies or strings, nothing in her mouth, no discoloration anywhere on her body, just staying by the top of the water. By Sun night she was barely swimming at all, just hovering in the same spot at the top of the tank. I then moved her to a smaller hospital tank, added more melafix (I didn't know what else to do because the pet store was closed on Sun). This morning she was dead. None of the other fish that I got Friday have been exhibiting this behavior but I think one of them may have some slight bumps on the sides of her mouth, I don't know for sure though as she is very active (and very pregnant so I was worried about holding her still), and her mouth area is different colors anyway. I don't know if I'm actually seeing something out of place on her or if I'm just so freaked over the other fishes mysterious death that I'm just being paranoid, but I figure better safe than sorry.
  I don't have a microscope so I can't do a scrape on the dead fishes gills to check for flukes. I plan to bring her to my pet store this evening when my husband gets home and I hope they will. And of course I will keep ya'll updated(yes I'm from FL).
  If anyone can please give me some suggestions I would really appreciate it. My pet store is good in that they wouldn't even sell me fish the first time I went in there because I didn't know much and hadn't cycled my tank yet, six weeks later when my tank had cycled (with an apple snail in it), they wouldn't sell me fish because they believed some of their fish might be sick, although they didn't know with what. This same store sent me a very nice card when my German Shepherd died 2 years ago so I really respect the owner, but unfortunately she really doesn't know diddly about freshwater fish. I would like to go in there a little more informed as to what I should buy to treat the rest of the fish as a preventive measure. I will be treating both tanks because I have a 3 yr old daughter and you never know 100% for sure whether they have been messing with the tanks or not.
  If ya'll think it may be flukes, can I put my apple snail somewhere else for a while that isn't filtered so the meds don't kill her? How long do I have to wait before I can put her back in the tank? Can she continue to carry flukes, desease, etc? Will any of the meds harm the fry I expect to have within the next week from my 2 pregnant females (one of whom is in a breeding net)?
  Sorry so long winded but as I said I have a caring yet VERY uninformed pet store and I'm about 50 miles from the next closest one. I really need help and don't have anywhere else I can turn. I don't want a tank of dead fish and more than that I don't want them to suffer for my ignorance. Thank you for your time.
< Always same strange nehavior before death. | Very smelly fishtank, what can I do? >
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Dead from nothing I can see | 9 comments (9 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: Angelhologram, lethargy and (none / 0) (#2)
by angelhologram on Tue May 17, 2005 at 07:08:13 PM PST

Thanks Scott.
  I'll make this brief because there's a storm heading my way and my internet will go out. I brought some of the water from my tank to the pet store with me and they tested it. I don't know exactly what all tests they did but they used 5 different tests strips and told me my water was perfect. The amount of salt I added to my 10gal was 1 3/4 tblsp. I don't use a water conditioner as I have well water with no additives. When I do water changes I let the water sit overnight and then test the temp before adding. When I get new fish I add water to the bag in 3 cycles but not because the store suggested it but because I learned it on this site. The dead fish showed no redness or protusions on her gills or anywhere else and no rubbing on rocks etc. (by the way all the others bought at the same time are doing wonderfully) In addition to the apple snail I also used about 100 ramshorn snails to cycle the tank, I figured if every aquatic animal emits ammonia then why not use the more disposable snails (except the apple) instead of fish. And a Chilton's manual is great for doing engine repair ;-)
*BEFORE you buy fish make sure you understand what "Cycling" a tank means <- quoted from miskaral* ~Trying to make a difference one fish at a time~


Wow! You've done your homework! It is (none / 0) (#3)
by unclescott on Wed May 18, 2005 at 07:17:08 AM PST

probably fair to suggest that whatever was bothering that deceased guppy, it was something stemming from some step in the commercial chain and not your fault. While it would be grasping at straws, that fish may have undergone some sort of shock like being in heavily salted water and abruptly moved to water with a much lower TDS.

The amount of salt you put in, is quite reasonable and modest. That shouldn't have bothered the guppy.

If guppies keep dying in the same way, I would consider finding another source. But before that happens, ask your shop if they could measure the TDS or conductivity of the water their guppies come in. The problem may not be between the wholesaler and the shop, but between the importer and the wholesalers though.

Sometimes things happen which insurance people call "an act of God", for lack of a better term.

I remember the story of a person who bid mucho dinero for a pair of guppies at an auction. The guppies were brought home and carefully acclimated to the new tank. And then the male guppy shuddered, rolled over and died. Heart attack? Who knows?

That story may be true or just a part of the hobby folklore. But it illustrates the conviction that some things are just beyond the hobbyist's control.

And I could have used a certain Chilton's manual this last weekend. ;)

All the best!
u.s.

[ Parent ]



Re: Wow! You've done your homework! It is (none / 0) (#4)
by angelhologram on Fri May 20, 2005 at 06:05:33 AM PST

Ugggg! Well, since my last post in this thread I've been monitoring the female with the spots on her mouth, as well as the other new females. The spots (fungus?) are still there and she's started flashing, as have 2 of the other females and one male. She has developed one clamped anal fin, and it looks like one of the other females is starting to hold hers close to the body too. I've been adding 7 teaspoons of salt once a day for the past two days (dissolving first and gradually adding it in). My thermometer went on the fritz so I turned off the heater until I can get a new one. There's no way for me to take a pic of the female with the stuff by her mouth as it is barely visible to the naked eye and doesn't show in pics. Could the other fish just be reacting to the salt in the water and therefore itching? Does this sound like a simple case of ich or mouth fungus or could I be looking at the dreaded Columnaris? She isn't staying near the top or gasping for air, but she still hasn't dropped fry so I don't know if her hiding and staying secluded is because she's about to give birth or if its another symptom of illness. I plan to head back to the pet store tonight or tomorrow morning to pick up some meds even if I don't use them at this time. I had Melafix in that tank about 2 weeks ago, did 2 partial water changes since then before I started using salt. Used a charcoal filter for about 8-10 hrs to try and get most of the rest out. What can I safely use now. Do I need anything at all or should I just wait a while longer and see if the salt takes care of it? I read on one site I should be adding 7 teaspoons 2x daily but htat seemed to be too stressful at the time for my fish, should I increase to that now for the third and final day?
*BEFORE you buy fish make sure you understand what "Cycling" a tank means <- quoted from miskaral* ~Trying to make a difference one fish at a time~
[ Parent ]


I wouldn't add more salt. If the fuzz is just (none / 0) (#5)
by unclescott on Fri May 20, 2005 at 10:22:24 AM PST

around the mouth, it could be mouth fungus and treatable with triple-sulfa (under a couple of brands). If it is on the body, then yes, it could be the dreaded columnaris.

If your room is in the mid-70s, chilling is probably not an issue. Shopping for a heater is probably not something you want to do at the moment. If you have to, consider a submersible or one of the better heaters. Cheap heaters seldom are a bargain over time - and it may be a disappointingly short time.

Burgess, Bailey and Excell suggest a bath (where a solution is made up with clean, seasoned water, manufacturer's instructions are followed and the fish removed when it shows stress or swims funny) of PHENOXYETHANOL/ PHENOXETHOL. That is pretty strong stuff and is also an anaesthetic. A marine salt bath (1.023 specific gravity) has also been suggested. Perhaps the latest antibiotic could work. (Be glad most of these maladies are bacterial and not viral.) By the way, put a gently bubbling airstone in those baths if you can.

One of the other maddening things, aside from the fact that for the most part, this is none of your doing, is that there are a lot of diseases, including some we've probably never heard of which could be confused Flexibacter columnaris.

These could include guppy disease (Tetrahymena, a protozoan), Trichodina (where resident ciliate populations explode and become parasitic), skin slime disease caused by a protozoan (once called Costia, now Ichthyobodo), rarely (or never in livebearers) neon disease, velvet (Oodinium or Picinoodinium), one of several funguses (if the fish's skin has been injured or rubbed raw), one of the Lymphpocystis virus which may be ubiquitous in the tanks of wholesalers and which attacks injured skin. It is also called cauliflower disease. Off color skin could even be a precursor of fish TB, Mycobacterium, virtually never treatable in fish.

Sometimes that is "just" a case of mucus hyperproduction, possibly to deal with something we can't even see (yet). There is also Chilodonella, where ciliates which usually only attack dead skin cells (fish dandruff?) can attack living cells when tank conditions decline and immune systems are hurting. There is even something called Apiosoma, which are ciliates which may appear on fish skin, but other than confusing aquarists, don't seem to cause any harm (except for overdosing of medicines.)

A lot of these are protozoan and you may choose to treat for them. Many of them can't be positively identified by most of us (most certainly including me). Specialty labs might be able to. But they may need samples from living fish and they are expensive for home aquarists. Even post mortems need to be done soon (maybe within a half an hour of death) and who has a fish pathologist on retainer and nearby?

My academic studies, such as they were, had nothing to do with any of these things. Sometimes a little knowledge, culled from several fish care and fish disease books can be helpful. Sometimes that little knowledge can be dangerous.

Assume it is columnaris and you want to try to stop it, try an antibiotic. Treat it with a bath if you can. If the fish are still ill, but not responding to treatment, keep up the water changes, replace the activated carbon in the filter to get that antibiotic out and try an anti-parasite treatment.

I'm sorry to sound so pessimistic and to raise the question about confused identification. Some illnesses just jump right out at one and scream "Ick!" or "Velvet!" Others don't. You are not alone in being frustrated when the disease is not obvious. (And then there is the issue of medicine resistant bacteria.) Sometimes it is amazing that anyone is still keeping fish!

This is why the idea of a quarantine tank is batted around so much. (I'm pretty sure you have read this before, so this is more for the benefit of lurkers.) Despite the obvious cost of that basic set-up, keeping new purchases there, in the long run is cheaper financially and emotionally than not quarantining fish. I had the temerity to suggest on the Killietalk list (to much more experienced aquarists and even a couple of pathologists) yesterday that not only should all newly purchased fish, out of commercial channels, be quarantined, but also subjected to a preventative anti-parasitic treatment. So far, no one has shot that suggestion down.

That way, a number of potential maladies (some of which we would never know about until it will be too late) can be dealt with. Then if militant tank maintenance can't be kept up (and heaven knows I mess up too often there also), we can treat for bacterial problems, while beginning that emergency cycle of partial water changes.

All the best!
unc;e scott

[ Parent ]



Re: I wouldn't add more salt. If the fuzz is just (none / 0) (#6)
by angelhologram on Fri May 20, 2005 at 09:08:18 PM PST

  OK Scott, let me pick your brain some more. Anyone else PLEASE feel free to chime in!
  I now definately see white salt like spots on one of the males, however he also has prtruding scales on his back between his head and dorsal fin. These could be damaged scales from the other males or could be a sign that the "ich" is actually "guppy disease". Now I know that the treatment is basically the same for each. So here's my problem, if I treat with Malachite Green it will damge my very fragile and new nitrogen cycle, but if I treat with copper it will kill my apple snails. All three of my tanks are affected, so I will be treating all of them. I have a little bowl with a plant growing in it (the kind you buy with a Betta in it) that I could put my snails in for a while, but it has no airation/filtration. How long do I have to leave the copper in there? How long will it take to cycle out using a new carbon filter and water changes? Please help quickly, the pregnant female is not looking good at all.
*BEFORE you buy fish make sure you understand what "Cycling" a tank means <- quoted from miskaral* ~Trying to make a difference one fish at a time~
[ Parent ]


What a tough set of choices! I appreciate (none / 0) (#7)
by unclescott on Fri May 20, 2005 at 11:17:19 PM PST

your preceptiveness in that the possible treatment which can be applied to either Ick or Tetrahymena or guppy disease. I would use the Malachite Green. Miskairal used that in conjunction with something else fairly effectively if i recall. Malachite green in the powdered for you can be dangerous. ("Don't inhale" -Wm. Clinton.) I'm assuming that this is in liquid form.

Copper can easily be over and maybe under dosed. Overdosing can cause muscle damage or kill the fish. Just what we are trying to avoid with Tetrahymena.) It is most dangerous at a lower pH. Naturally at the safer pH levels guppies are usually kept at, it isn't as effective. As you know, it is also very toxic to snails (and a lot of invertebrates). I fear that Betta bowl would be too small for a keeping the snail in very long.  Stephanie Dodson suggested 2.5 gallons per apple snail athttp://www.petfish.net/Apple_Snail.htm

I don't know what the tolerance for Malachite green is for your apple snails. Nor do I know if they can carry Ick, though Ick is an ectoparasite which might be carried by them.

You probably have already discovered
http://www.applesnail.net/
I wonder if that site or the people associated with it could answer the question as to whether the snails should be treated too.

Where ever you decide to put the snails, don't delay with the treatment of the guppies. Staring as quickly is you can, is important. BB&E do mention protruding scales as a sign of the guppy disease. (Rats! I was hoping, for your sake, it was Ick.) That same team suggests an immediate treatment of early cases with a mild anti-protosoan application and euthenasia for serious cases.

Also don't know if the snails can convey the guppy disease either. Wish this didn't get so convoluted, so easily. :)

Good luck and all the best!
unc;e

[ Parent ]



You will have to move the snails though! (none / 0) (#8)
by unclescott on Fri May 20, 2005 at 11:22:34 PM PST

A quick spin through the http://www.applesnail.net/ FAQs indicates that the snails are very vulnerable to malachite green too. I go with isolating them for a couple of weeks if possible. Guessing that they would be ok to put with the guppies then.

All the best again!
unc

[ Parent ]



Re: You will have to move the snails though! (none / 0) (#9)
by angelhologram on Sat May 21, 2005 at 09:35:20 AM PST

  Ok, picked up some MG and started treatment after I moved the snails. I guess I'll just have to do daily water changes to the smaller bowl when I change water in the 3 10gals. One last question. Now that I've got MG in my tanks (I'm just calling all three of them hosipital tanks now) what in the world do I do when the fry come? I know it can be harmful to fry. Put them in with the snails???
*BEFORE you buy fish make sure you understand what "Cycling" a tank means <- quoted from miskaral* ~Trying to make a difference one fish at a time~
[ Parent ]


Angelhologram, lethargy and (none / 0) (#10)
by unclescott on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 04:22:41 PM PST

hanging at the surface can mean that the fish aren't breathing well. This could be hypoxia or oxygen starvation. Hypoxia also can be the result of poisoning - where the fish are unable to get enough oxygen because of the high level of CO2 (carbon dioxide poisoning) and any of a whole bunch of other factors in the water.

What color are the fish's gills? We talked a bit about this in:
 http://www.guppylog.com/story/2005/2/24/163511/736

It is even possible that something in the house is impacting the tank. For a couple of suggestions see

http://www.guppylog.com/story/2003/11/15/55646/798

Do look to see what your three-year old put in. Probably nothing is there. However it is sometimes amazing that any of us or our pets survived that age when we (and our children) suddenly became so mobile and curious and klutzy. I learned fast not to take a 2.5 year old to the hardware store with all of those neat little bins of pipe fittings. ;)

By the way, Melafix in a tank too long, can cause a pH plunge. If it has been there well over a week, start changing it out.

The same applies for salt. A little can be a tonic - especially if there are visible spots or growth on the skin. Too much can dramatically raise the water's TDS (total dissolved solids) and that can lead to trouble. Too much of a sudden shift between waters of different TDS can lead to osmotic shock.

See http://www.guppylog.com/story/2004/1/31/5655/54195

If the fish had flukes, they would probably be scraping themselves on the gravel, rocks or what ever. Did you see any of that?

If you are really worried about them, treat with an anthelmintic or one of the commercial Parasite Guards or de-wormers. That also takes care of several possible (and nasty) internal worms too. I'm almost to the point where any new fish from commercial channels will get that treatment while in quarantine.

By the way, it may be best to leave all the tank paraphernalia in while medicating for parasites (both crustaceans and worms). That way anything adhering to the equipment by surface tension stays   and gets treated.

By the way, kudos to you and you pet shop for using an apple snail to cycle the tank. I think that's neat! If you are medicating for worms, you really need to also include the fry and yes, the snail, even though it could threaten the snail. Remove the snail after 4 days, it should still be ok.

I'm really impressed with what you are considering, even if it is not possible (logistically speaking) to diagnose the disease. Also impressive, is what you seemed to have gleaned from this site, other sites and people and books elsewhere. You are checking for things a lot of aquarists would not know to check for. You may be correct, that lab work (s0metimes within 30 minutes of death unfortunately) may need to be done to actually determine the cause(s) of death. You were not long-winded, just doing a great job of doing your best to describe what has been happening.

Much of this noise from me, admittedly, is just "throwing things against the wall to see what sticks." Sort of like with auto and computer repair, sometimes that's what one must do. :(

You mention treating with your customary water conditioner. Does that treat both for chlorine and ammonia? The reason I ask is that water departments has been increasingly putting both of those in. Indeed they have been asked to do that. If you are treating with just a dechlorinator and they are shipping chloramine (chlorine which naturally bonds to ammonia), you are releasing the chlorine, but also creating an ammonia burst.

Another problem with tap water is where the tap water was very cold. As it warms up rapidly, bubbles can form on the side of the tank - oh yes  - and in the fish's blood vessels. That is a gas embolism and roughly the same as when a diver gets the bends. That is also called gas bubble disease.

Recently visited a cichlid nut (with a zillion gallons of water) and his own well. He is constantly running new water into his tanks with a very fine and powerful nozzle. When asked why, he noted that if he didn't do that he got the bubbles all over the tank. The bubbles were "free nitrogen" and could replace oxygen (or prevent the absorption of oxygen)  in the fish. He said that he first noticed that when he just ran the water into a tank. The fish got a little loopy, just lazily cruising around, sometimes going near the surface. Then they slowed down and died after a day or three. When that happened he was quick to call around and get that nozzle.

That lethargy can also be a sign of nitrite poisoning. The scenario can unfortunately be much the same as with the above paragraph. (And the cure is to do more partial water changes with safe, seasoned water.)

All kinds of stress/ shock - temperature shock, osmotic shock, chemical shock , pH shock and on and on - can be caused by suddenly moving fish from one type of water to another which is dramatically different. That probably is not what happened to your fish. But just to check, did your shop have you add a little tank water to your bag (or jar) with the fish in them? Did they have you then pour off some of that water, 20-30 minutes later, and add some more tank water. After a third time of decanting/ pouring off water and adding
tank water, did they have you throwing all that water out and (gently) dropping your fish into their new home?

If your library has the
A-Z of Tropical Fish Diseases and Health Problems
By Peter Burgess, Mary Bailey and Adrian Excell
(Howell Book House, NY, 1998 or 1999).

Or

The Tropical Fishlopeadia: A Complete Guide To Fish Care
Also by Bailey and Burgess
Also by Howell Book House, NY but C. 2000

they go into this in even greater detail.

If your library doesn't have those books, check their holdings computer to see if either are in a nearby town or if you can get them through inter-library loan. (Your tax dollars at work.)

It may be that you will never know what had hit your fish. It may have been something before they got to your home and you are just now seeing the results. With lots of TLC, your survivors may do just fine.

Hopefully, other than take a little of your time, the above has done no harm and may be a little helpful. Please give a quick mental check though of the scenarios suggested. Hopefully they will all be discarded. :)

Good luck and all the best!
uncle scott


[ Parent ]



Dead from nothing I can see | 9 comments (9 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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