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Front Page · Everything · News · Ask Guppylog · Diaries
Winter Mystery Deaths

Care Tips
By unclescott
from the By Golly! department, Section Ask Guppylog
Posted on Sat Feb 07, 2004 at 03:30:19 PM PST
One blustery January day some years back, I got another phone call from a retired pathologist who was looking for a certain fish species for cancer research. He settled upon guppies when he was unable to secure the first species (the medaka, an honorary killifish often used in research.) Evidentally he got my name through the killifish underground. ;)



His problem was that his guppies were very consistently dying. He had no idea why. The more we talked, the more confused I became. So frustrated had I become that I asked if he would accept a house call (kind of a fun reversal for a physician.) My classes for the following day were all set up and (remarkably) the papers were graded. I promised to make the hour run up the toll road and be at his place in Skokie by 7 something PM.

When I arrived, he pulled out one of the better tropical fish encyclopedias. He skimmed some of the creatures he was curious about. "Yep bred that" "Yep, lost those."

He asked if I would like to see his medical photos. Wasn't thinking about his specialty - pathology or the study of what causes diseases. Well I got treated to some of the most impressive photos of cancerous lungs and throats I had ever seen. In fact there was more than I really cared to peruse, but fortunately dinner was long before.

When he showed me his eight or ten 10 gallon tanks, I was treated to a vision of bare bottomed tanks with box filters, some flake food on the bottom and a dead and dying guppy (among the living adults and fry) in almost every tank. Despite the messy tanks, I was stumped as to why every tank looked so much the same.

At the time there was a top-notch shop - AquaMarines - about 20 minutes away near the NW corner of Chicago. The proprietor had a pretty good (dissecting?) microscope and had been taking fish pathology courses from George Bassleer at Shedd Aquarium. In desperation I called him and he (a night owl anyway) most graciously agreed to stay open and check out the guppies. He asked for a water sample, a dead guppy and a dying guppy.

I really felt bad about dragging that retired gentleman, in his 70s, out into sub-zero weather, but he too was quite willing to get to the bottom of those mystery deaths. We got to the shop about 9 PM.

Jerry, the shop proprietor, measured the water for organics (ammonia, nitrates) and it seemed ok. He killed the dying fish as quickly and painlessly as possible and opened both guppies we had brought along.

Jerry was really puzzled in that he found no internal parasites. Nothing externally either.

He did notice that the spleen and the liver were dramatically wrong in size. One was shrunken. (Don't ask me what a shrunken or swollen fish spleen or liver looks like.) While one had shrunk, the other had ballooned way up in size.
Guessing that those two organs were not only a part of the digestive system, but also the "osmoregulatory system" he went back to the remainder of the water sample.

Chicago (Lake Michigan) tap water has a hardness of about 155-160 PPM. The water from the fish tanks was 400 PPM! That is something along
the line of some of the very mineral filled Rift Lakes! He didn't even bother with TDS (total dissolved solids).

He mentioned his results and a little bulb clicked on in both our minds.

"When the water in your guppy tanks evaporates, what do you do?"

"Well.... I top it off with tap water."

That was it! The guppies were exhausting themselves trying to get the extra minerals out of their systems.

Freshwater fish constantly have to deal with the water around them seeping into their bodies. They cope with that by almost constantly passing very dilute urine (mostly through their gills). This enables them to hold on to essential minerals.

Marine fish, by the way, have to keep the water in their system from passing through the semi-permeable barrier of their skin into the sea. They do that by drinking lots of water and passing a small amount of very concentrated urine. This way they keep the H2O and get rid of the extra minerals.

Well these guys were having to do the salt-water thing in a freshwater tank. In cases of illness, fish sometimes die in the reverse pecking order of their tank. That seemed to be what was happening.

.....

When I had the privilege of stopping by the Lockwood's a little while back, I noticed Scott quickly grabbing a bucket and pouring water into several tanks.

"R.O. water?"

He smiled.

That's the only way to top off a tank in the winter and not fossilize one's fish. The "40" gallon tank in our living room with the powerhead needs about 7 gallons of water a week. So many plants grow out of it and drop leaves that it is losing some mineral and waste material that way. But I would have pickled those rainbowfish years ago, water changes not withstanding, without the demineralized water.

For those without such a toy as an R.O. unit, you need to cover the tank to minimize evaporation. (Catching rain, even if it was clean, isn't much of an option in January.)

Aim powerheads across the tank and not up. Cover power filter tops. Do run the sponge or corner filters at a pace which generates just a modest stream of bubbles. (Biological filters run more effectively if there is a little "surface time" with the filter media anyway.)

You really need to do more or larger water changes because everyone's tank will increase some in terms of hardness. The more frequent water changes will limit this to some degree.

But for those who don't consider what winter evaporation does, they will have to ponder some more "winter time mystery deaths". :(

For a little more on osmoregulation:
http://groups.msn.com/Breedingtropicalfish/osmoregulation.msnw

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Winter Mystery Deaths | 12 comments (12 topical, 0 hidden)
Re: Winter Mystery Deaths (none / 0) (#7)
by Angelee on Mon Feb 09, 2004 at 10:32:55 AM PST

Love this article.  I can be a ding-a-ling some days and I've had the mystery deaths before,.. and assumed LFS problems, since none of mine had died.    Always assuming it's a run of  the mill petshop disease, and passing the buck.  I've taken to larger water changes because I noticed the dreaded white line lately appearing on some of my aquariums. (A no no, if there ever was, from lime build-up.)        
Since I live so close to the mountains (in the foothills, very close to the mountains),.. I'm also thinking of getting a really good R.O. unit.  Think of all the minerals that will increase just from the spring run-off!  (Something I hadn't thought of until your article.)  Knowing where my area gets it's water from, and knowing it goes right by some open mines it will probably be a grand idea, despite actually getting an up to date EPA water report recently.  
"The Rocky Mountain Gupster" ANGELEE


Re: Winter Mystery Deaths (none / 0) (#3)
by Nate on Sun Feb 08, 2004 at 08:44:58 AM PST

US- If I'm reading this right the % of change is the primary factor in the short term, the hardness is the primary factor in the long haul.
Right or wrong????
Nate



I think you're reading it correctly Nate. (none / 1) (#4)
by unclescott on Sun Feb 08, 2004 at 09:45:57 AM PST

However the short term % also effects the long term hardness, because if we are only changing say 10% a week and are probably replacing what has been evaporated which might be 4-5%. If there is a 5% evaporation rate, we are really are only replacing 5 % of the water in the tank. We are also increasing the hardness of the water by a weekly rate of about 5%. (Note GG's suggestion in this light.)

Please don't trust my math, but (multiplying that week's hardness by 1.05) if the tank was a Chicagoland hardness of 160 ppm ( about 9.4 Degrees Hardness), the next week it would be 168 ppm. In nine weeks, about 2 months, it would be 248 ppm and some change. Pretty nearly 150% of what it was.

Greater quantities (20-25%at a time) or more frequent water changes will slow down the rate of increase. Short of topping off with demineralized water of some kind (reverse osmosis, an ion exchange system - the more sophisticated, distilled - really expensive or rainwater - the most work, collect after the rain has washed the air and roof for 20-30 minutes first) the hardness and accumulation of fish wastes, etc, will continue to increase.

This is why some aquarists tear down their rearing tanks every so many months. If they keep their filters and gravel wet, the system will rebound pretty quickly. (Maybe don't feed that first day.)

Now I have to admit to some hypocracy here. I don't change water on hardly any of several tanks weekly. I do top off with RO water. Many of the tanks are planted. And many of the tanks have a pretty light population load.

In a really "old" tank, I would be very careful about adding new fish. The fish in that tank are used to the gradual accumulation of who-knows-what. The new fish would not be. (That is why a lot of purchases die immediately in an old tank where the other fish seem fine. Then we dump on the seller.)

In most cases if I wish to combine fishes from several tanks, I will start them all out in a newly renovated tank so thay get a fresh start.

I have the space advantage so that new pairs of breeders or sets of youngters almost always get a fresh tank. That serves as both quarantine and in time a grow out or breeding set-up. This is easier for a person who keeps single species tanks.

I may still take a couple of hours to acclimate them to the new water. Part of this is because it takes a while to add tank water to their holding container three times (decanting some of the holding container water before each addition). Those containers are covered, so if I wander off on errands or e-mail or milking the cows, sopping the hogs or feeding the chickens, the fish will not be crispy critters.

My personal goals for the next year include the desire to clear more of the clutter out of the fishroom, to have fewer but more accessible tanks, to have fewer or no more species and strains, to have a greater water seasoning capacity, to change water more frequently and to see the fish that remain grow up more rapidly.

Even if a person is topping off with demineralized water, the tank(s) is(are) increasing in totally dissolved solids TDS - fishwaste, house dust, whatever one's little brother throws in, disoriented insects and other flotsome and jetsome.

Even a really efficient filter is probably only going to break the ammonia eventually down to nitrates. Those are not as toxic as ammonia (the less nasty ammonium at lower pHs)and nitites. This nitrogen cycle is incredibly useful.

Some small quantity of that stuff can be boiled off through filtration. There are some really sophisticated trickle systems which can get rid of more of that stuff. Or in my case, plants (almost like the marine set-up with an algae scrubber) can be helpful.

As Dr. Charles Harrison suggests though, there's only one way to empty the toilet... ;)

[ Parent ]



"In a really "old" tank.... (none / 0) (#10)
by guppygirl on Sat Feb 14, 2004 at 04:08:01 AM PST

Oh, Jimminy Crickets US, I'll bet that's what's wrong with Travolta!!!!

Oh, how I wish I'd read this before I transfered him!!!

Due to some intense personality clashes, I switched a few of my male swords around.  I thought if I moved Travolta to my "oldest, and most stable" tank, he would be even better.

D'OH!!!!

A few days later, yesterday in fact, I noticed he was like "grey" colored where he usually is green, and seemed to be hanging nearer to the top.

Of course I checked the water properties, and the only thing amiss was the water hardness, up a few notches.  But I KNEW this, as this was the tank that I still needed to do a good vacuum and refill.

Everyone else in the tank is fine,(except the minature platy's) but that's another puzzle.

He didn't look like he had ich, or velvet, or fungus, he just looked, "like an old man, and a little skinnier".

So I did do the vacuuming and refill, and fed with brine shrimp, which he did scarf down.(The platy's are off their feed towards the end, and I have lost one so far)

When vacuuming I noted the same thing as usual, that there is always less waste in this tank than any of the others, even though it is the most highly populated one.
Love those Clown Loaches!!!  :o)
(oh, and I have to give SOME credit to the snails)

I also added another air source to kick up the aeration, and later he wasn't hanging at the top, but was only looking a little bit better.

The other sword in the tank is just fine, but he has been there since quarantine.

Do you think that this may be the cause? I was/am stumped.

I really, really do not want to lose him, and I don't think salt is good for loaches, and if I move him back to the other tank in this shape, he will be a gonner. =(

gg
:o{

[ Parent ]



RE: In a really "old" tank (none / 0) (#11)
by unclescott on Sat Feb 14, 2004 at 03:15:10 PM PST

full of "stuff"...probably the hardness and the Total Dissolved Solids TDS is greater in Travolta's tank than where he was. If salt is added, while that doesn't increase the hardness, it increases the TDS a ton! If those changes are great enough, gills can hemmorage.

When we look at a tank, so often we're flying on instruments - without an instrument rating. :(

Your water changes are good. They are removing a lot of "stuff" dissolved in the water beyond just the "hardness" minerals.

If the swordtail has been there a couple of days and there was a dramatic increase in either hardness or TDS, his gills could have been hurt (some) by the osmotic change. He should be able to heal if the stress then and now is not too great.

Do you or your husband know somebody either with an R.O. unit for home consumption or who works in a lab where they wink at people taking a little demineralized water home? I really hate to suggest spending cash on distilled or other demineralized water at the grocery store - where it is prohibitively expensive. I'm not talking spring water which is so tasty in good part because of the minerals in it, but that tasteless stuff we would use in a steam iron.

If you can get ahold of a gallon of that stuff, you might try changing a gallon out of the (ten?) gallon tank where Travolta resides and very slowly adding the demineralized water.

If you wish to try this, I'd set the demineralized water (gallon jug?) on top of the tank. I would take some airline tubing, loosely knot it and run it from the jug to the tank, maybe just in the out flow of the filter.

I like that green silicon tubing for this because it is so flexible. A guy wisely tempered my enthusiasm for it by pointing out that it can pinch off. So the green stuff gets used for drip siphons where I want a really slow flow. You should be able to count the drops punking in. The regular airline tubing, which can also be used for drip siphons in a pinch, gets used as airlines.

Your husband - and you - may find this nuts. It may be too little and too expensive to do much on a tank.

It is however, a way of reproducing what the rain does in terms of gradually diluting water. Since fish generally can be moved more comfortably into water with a little greater hardness, TDS and pH, moving "downhill" needs to be gradual. However nature does it every shower and cloudburst. And many fish rejoice by spawning and (as fishermen know) foraging even when the cloudburst is on it's way.

I've mentioned before that as a chemist, I'm a pretty good history teacher. Others visiting this forum, please chime in.

GG please seek additional corroboration on line and in print. Tetra produced an Aquariology series (both in four and in one volume) several years ago which should be available from the library and interlibrary loan. It is dry reading, but has useful info.

Probably several of the aquarium books also address this issue. It's the stuff we all skip over. ;)

Good luck and all the best!
u.s.

[ Parent ]



Re: RE: In a really "old" tank (none / 0) (#12)
by guppygirl on Sun Feb 15, 2004 at 03:37:29 AM PST

Well, I lost him. :o(

I don't really know how old he was, but my guess was that he still had at least another year or so left.

I lost his original mate just before I transfered him. She was a neon, but had been in that tank for some time.

I'll be more cautious next time. Double Darn though!!! I'm so glad I got a picture of him.

Well, they're together again now, and as the song goes, I'll "look to the children". (Sister Hazel)

gg
:o(

[ Parent ]



Re: I think you're reading it correctly Nate. (none / 0) (#5)
by Nate on Sun Feb 08, 2004 at 01:23:39 PM PST

US- I'm still laughing at a mental picture of Dr.Charles exhorting on the proper proceedure to pull the chain. I can see  him doing an hour lecture on it, facial expressions and all.

You bring up one interesting point--that being the introduction of plants into the mix. It's been obvious for years that plants absorb ammonia directly, and rather immediately assuming the plant is hungry. So well planted tanks negate the need for cycling.
But I had never thought about the effect of plants on disovled solids, minerals, etc. How much--and which ones--do they eat?
Guess I should dig out the test kits and check in to it--unless you already have a handle on the research.  :-)
And another thought--- I have several tanks with dirt substrates. Does dirt filter solids out of the water? Does dirt release solids into the water?  Or both, depending on....?

Nate

[ Parent ]



"exhorting on the proper proceedure to (none / 0) (#6)
by unclescott on Sun Feb 08, 2004 at 07:23:27 PM PST

pull the chain." You must be familiar with time and motion studies. But Charles is a chemist, not an engineer or a physicist, so I guess we can't tease about Ph D = pile it higher and deeper. ;)

I don't think in most cases we will be able to pull most of the organic wastes from the water with plants. Maybe a pair of guppies in a planted tank with regular water changes or one of those Aquatic Gardens with a low fish load will work, but it is hard because we "have eyes bigger than our stomachs when at auctions or the LFS. Or the guppies keep on having guppies. ;)

On the other hand, there are some neat, fairly inexpensive things which can be done. Several rain forest and or marsh plants can grow with "wet feet". Their roots are in the water, the rest of them is extending out of the aquarium (of course increasing the risks of jumping fish and evaporation).

The beauty of some of those plants (Spaths, Philodendrum and even water sprite, water lettuce, and the much hated duck weed) is that oxygen and CO2 exchanges are much greater out of the water than in it. A FAMA article on the topic of emergent plants (among other things) by Diana Walstad, suggested that this gas exchange might be something like 100 times greater than in the water.

Ms. Walstad, by the way, has written a book -Ecology of the Planted Aquarium, C. 1999 - which suggests how one can put together a pretty good planted system without spending one's college fund on it. She even shows how soil can be used under the gravel as a carbon source so one doesn't have to spend a fortune on a CO2 unit or build one of the risky DIY units.

As is so often the case, I'm soon to be in over my head on the topic. See if you can borrow her book through interlibrary loan.

I think you will be intrigued by some of her ideas. As a killinut, I'm a little edgy because most of her research and research sources are with temperate, hardwater plants, because tropical killies may not come from those waters. Guppies do come from waters with more of a "Midwest American" mineral river blend somewhat along the line of a percentage of components typically 31.9% bicarbonate, 12.4% sulfate, 8.6% chloride, 16.6% calcium, 14.5% silica, 7% sodium, 4.5% magnesium and 2.5% potassium. (Thanks to a recent killitalk essay by chemist David Koran.)

What she says may indeed have significance for guppy people keeping their charges in a planted tank. If one is raising a lot of fish and is under a deadline set by a show schedule, I don't think that kind of tank would be useful.

It's been a few years since I read "the plant book without a lot of plant photos". If someone is more recently familiar with her ideas, would you please help us out?

[ Parent ]



Re: "exhorting on the proper proceedure to (none / 0) (#8)
by Nate on Mon Feb 09, 2004 at 07:20:32 PM PST

US- I have Walstad's book. Only problem is finding the time to read it rather than using it for a quick "resource" manual. Another source is   naturalaquariums.com   owned and operated by the ALA's webmistress.
I have 60-70 tanks of gups and do not have a filter (other than plants) on any of them. They are much like any other set up--the heavier the fish load, the more often you need to change water. My biggest advantage with the plant filtered tanks is the disease problems I had with the filtered tanks is virtually gone.
Walstad has a section on floating plants and my memory sez your memory is pretty good. Air exchange is much improved with floaters as is ammonia uptake.
Now if I could just find a market for all that duckweed....................
Nate

[ Parent ]


http://www.naturalaquariums.com/ (none / 0) (#9)
by unclescott on Wed Feb 11, 2004 at 03:34:03 AM PST

is a site i haven't been to in a long time. It is better than ever. Always had it bookmarked in my older computers. I've gone to it for inspiration numerous times.

Rhonda is a remarkable person. Active in a lot of areas of life, she also does a lot of Net stuff, obviously has her fish and plants and a very full plate as a parent.

[ Parent ]



Re: Winter Mystery Deaths (none / 0) (#2)
by guppygirl on Sun Feb 08, 2004 at 03:29:07 AM PST

Excellent article, US!  

I've read that just "tapping off" tanks in winter,
or at anytime actually, can lead to increased hardness.

I've suggested to readers on this site that if they need to add water due to evaporation, remove AT LEAST that amount first, and then fill.

If you don't have the time to vacuum right then, that's OK, just remember that you didn't, and get to it asap.

Thanks for the post, I know it will light up some "mental filaments" for some of our readers.

Take care,
gg
:o)



Re: Winter Mystery Deaths (none / 0) (#1)
by Scott Lockwood on Sat Feb 07, 2004 at 05:58:45 PM PST

Good writeup!  The funny thing to me, when you told me this story over mushroom stirfry, was that the Path didn't figure this out himself in short order. I was a lab tech for many years, and had to do lots of tests that depended on starting with R.O. water, or similar. :-)

"I love to visit PetSmart's Tropical Fish Dept. to see what new diseases are around today." -- inkmaker



Winter Mystery Deaths | 12 comments (12 topical, 0 hidden)
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