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The Purer the Strain?
By Angelee from the Angelee department, Section Ask Guppylog Posted on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 12:20:51 PM PST Tags: (all tags)

Here's a question for the breeders on the site (awful sounding). For the ones that breed guppies. I was wondering if the idea for many is to reproduce batches of fry that look extremely similar to each other? For instance, all the fry would have half black tails and similar tail markings. At the shows, are some strains judged higher by such a feat. As opposed to those that throw off several colors and markings, etc?

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The Purer the Strain? | 14 comments (14 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: The Purer the Strain? (none / 0) (#1)
by Scott Lockwood on Thu Feb 05, 2004 at 10:35:09 AM PST

What an excellent question!

The way you do this, is you select the males that best display the characteristics that you want to preserve, and you breed them to their sisters and daughters. Repeat as necessary.

"I love to visit PetSmart's Tropical Fish Dept. to see what new diseases are around today." -- inkmaker

Re: The Purer the Strain? (none / 1) (#3)
by Angelee on Fri Feb 06, 2004 at 10:25:27 AM PST

Interesting, is it best to start with one particular favorable characteristic and then move on to another for the same strain, once you have succeeded in acquiring it to a relatively predictable level for that strain? For instance, suppose you want to work on just a particular set of colors you like. After the strain, several generations down, has reached a fairly predictable coloring, you decide that you'd also like to add size to the females or perhaps a larger caudal fin. So you find a breeder outside the loop with the desirable characteristic and similar coloring to try to introduce this new gene? Or should you try to work on several at once?
"The Rocky Mountain Gupster" ANGELEE
[ Parent ]

Re: The Purer the Strain? (none / 1) (#9)
by red illuzion on Fri Feb 06, 2004 at 12:10:53 PM PST

you also need to remember you need several tanks to acomplish something like this. you have to separate each male/female and each generation, for possible outcrossing in the future. keeping at least 2 seperate lines, imo, is a must.

[ Parent ]

Re: The Purer the Strain? (none / 0) (#4)
by Scott Lockwood on Fri Feb 06, 2004 at 10:29:48 AM PST

It depends!

The problem when inbreeding fish like this, is that if you want ANYTHING larger, you have to outcross most of the time, and then refix.

It can take a while. I go for overall "this fish exhibits the traits I want" as much as possible.

"I love to visit PetSmart's Tropical Fish Dept. to see what new diseases are around today." -- inkmaker
[ Parent ]

Re: The Purer the Strain? (none / 0) (#11)
by gupsup007 on Sat Feb 07, 2004 at 07:58:17 PM PST

>< HUH? So what you guys are saying, if you had a yellow male with a red stripe down both sides, and bred it with a female and some of their offspring looked almost like the dad, that if you breed them together they'll look more and more like the father? Or would you have to breed the father to those females that looked most like him? Can females even have a red stripe on their sides?

[ Parent ]

Re: The Purer the Strain? (none / 0) (#13)
by Angelee on Mon Feb 09, 2004 at 09:58:13 AM PST

If you are trying to replicate that stripe, yes. You never know what a particular fish's lineage is unless you have produced the fish yourself, and if it's only a second generation from a stock you aren't sure about ( ie, acquired at the LFS for instance), you will still have oddballs until the genes are bred out of the line. If you're interested they have a few really interesting articles on this, lately it has been on the albino strain and how it was 'perfected'. The stripe can be repeated on the female, but I have a feeling it would take a LOOOOOOONNGG time. More than likely appear on a male first. Inbreeding is a rather coman practice, from what I understand. (In many times of pet breeding.)
"The Rocky Mountain Gupster" ANGELEE
[ Parent ]

Re: overall (none / 1) (#6)
by Angelee on Fri Feb 06, 2004 at 10:59:13 AM PST

Really? I imagine it takes years to perfect one particular strain to your liking. Ahhhh, but I'll bet it's worth all the trouble. I may have to experiment with it myself, just for fun. In the meantime, because of the inbreeding, wouldn't it tend to make the line a little more prone (or sensitive, if you will) to disease, and temperature or condition changes?
"The Rocky Mountain Gupster" ANGELEE
[ Parent ]

Re: overall (none / 0) (#7)
by Scott Lockwood on Fri Feb 06, 2004 at 11:30:55 AM PST

Yes, very much so, also they tend to get smaller and smaller as times goes by.

"I love to visit PetSmart's Tropical Fish Dept. to see what new diseases are around today." -- inkmaker
[ Parent ]

That's why "they" try to keep 2-3 (none / 1) (#8)
by unclescott on Fri Feb 06, 2004 at 11:40:19 AM PST

or 4 lines of the strain so they can be back crossed every so many generations. That is something that other livebearer, rainbow, killie, cichlid and oddball keepers need to get used to. Gang spawning may work well to maintain wild strains. In a world with vanishing habitats, we need to learn from the guppy people. (Somebody now draw a picture of a guppy people.) ;)

Crossing out of the line to somebody else's quite different line can mean working a couple of generations and heavy culling before the new line is what is being sought. Considering that, I'm continually awed by what really good guppy or Betta breeders produce.

[ Parent ]

Re: Guppy People (none / 0) (#14)
by Angelee on Mon Feb 09, 2004 at 10:12:28 AM PST

Oddly enough I keep picturing 'Beeker',..or Dr Frankenstein, (Frahhnkenshteen). Depending on the day, of course.
"The Rocky Mountain Gupster" ANGELEE
[ Parent ]

Re: That's why "they" try to keep 2-3 (none / 1) (#10)
by guppygirl on Sat Feb 07, 2004 at 03:46:04 AM PST

Yes, the task can be quite daunting, when you start to try to keep track of all of the pairings,
and have to remember which ones need to be crossed back, and when.

I loved US's articulation of the genetics! (had to go lie down too!!)
Happens everytime.

I'll come to a chapter on genetics, and, although I did very well in the subject in school, when it comes to guppies, I have a headache by the third generation. ;-)

If you look back at some of my posts you will find that I attempted to replicate a bottom swordtail, and finally got one in the SEVENTH generation. Actually, I did get more than one, their tails seem to take longer to define.

Anyway, it will take some really, really, really, neat guppy for me to attempt THAT again, oh, and about four more tanks, so, when I own a LFS... I might try again.

/O O\
- (Attempt at guppy person)
\___/

gg
:o)

[ Parent ]

For further reading: (none / 1) (#2)
by unclescott on Fri Feb 06, 2004 at 06:51:36 AM PST

Iwasaki, Noboru
Guppies: Fancy Strains and How To Produce Them,
TFH 1989

Schroeder, Johannes
Genetics for Aquarists TFH 1976

See your library computer and interlibrary loan service.

Most of the time Scott's advice above will work. But some characteristics of guppies are not always sex linked. Or to make things more interesting sometimes a characteristic may be generated by two or three chromosomes. Sometimes those three key chromosomes all may be recessive!

Sometimes those genes are on the X or Y chromosome and sometimes not!

Further more sometimes there is also incomplete dominence - frequently the case where a characteristic is midway between both parents or
partial dominence (within incomplete dom.) where
some characteristics of one parent show.

Then there are the lethel genes which have kept the hobby from developing 100% black guppies.

Or there is the phenonmenon where maybe 10% of the genes on a chromosome may switch to another chromosome!

Well my head hurts now. Gonna go lay down. ;)

[ Parent ]

Re: For further reading: (none / 1) (#5)
by Angelee on Fri Feb 06, 2004 at 10:35:28 AM PST

Lethal genes? Are the black genes recessive or, at the very least, rare? I know I enjoy my half black females and have wondered if they do produce full black males. It seems to be not a particularly dominant characteristic as their fry have produced only a handful of true half-blacks like their mothers. All of the black veil males I have seen (when hit with a flashlight beam) were either deep blue or purple. I didn't know that none had been bred.
You know, I wonder if the type of genes are similar to the albino strains genes. It seems that to produce the true albino's (pink eyes and all)characteristics predictably was quite a task from what I've read. And, even then the strain threw off colors sometimes.
Oh, and take two aspirin and call me in the morning.
"The Rocky Mountain Gupster" ANGELEE
[ Parent ]

Re: For further reading: (none / 0) (#12)
by Nate on Sun Feb 08, 2004 at 08:56:41 AM PST

RMG-- In truth, there still is no such thing as a black guppy. What have come to be accepted as blacks are really blues or purples that are so dark they appear to be black. Your flashlight was exactly right--Nate

[ Parent ]

The Purer the Strain? | 14 comments (14 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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