Welcome to GuppyLog.com
New to Guppylog?
Immediate Help


Conversions and Calculator
Conversions and Tank volume calculator


Add yourself to our guppylog map
Guppylog Members


* Change as much water as often as you can! *
Inkmaker
Front Page · Everything · News · Ask Guppylog · Diaries
I'm lossing a guppy a day

Guppies
By Jodybr
from the Jody department, Section Ask Guppylog
Posted on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 12:15:30 PM PST
Tags: (all tags)
Hey everyone..........

As a former Cichlid Keeper, I decided to try guppies.  Everything was great for a while.  But recently I seem to lose a guppy every day.  I do have 2 mystery snails, 2 apple snails and not sure of the 3rd type, Straight like curly shell.  Is it possible that one of these snails could be killing the fish.  I buy from one dealer, he found nothing wrong with the water, keep the same level of salt as he does.  Any one have any ideas?  I'm about to give up and go back to my beloved cichlids

Please help, my daughter loves these fish
Thank you



< I need a little help! | Tank problems >
Menu

· create account

· F.A.Q. For Newbies!

· Immediate Help For Newbies!

· search


Web www.guppylog.com

· Scoop Info

· Our Tanks

Login
Make a new account
Username:
Password:

Related Links
· More on Guppies
· Also by Jodybr

Display: Sort:
I'm lossing a guppy a day | 19 comments (19 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: I'm lossing a guppy a day (none / 1) (#12)
by PeterW on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 03:02:49 PM PST

Here's a thought..  There are several really nasty parasites that use snails as an intermediate host.  Worms for one.

When you next get a dead guppy, try putting it in a jar or container of water for 24-36 hours or so.  (Somewhere that your daughter wont see it)

See if little red or white stringy things come out of the rear vent.  If they do, then you have camallanus worms.  It would certainly explain the one-a-day deaths if so.

Getting rid of the worms is a real pain.  I had a widespread outbreak here.  As near as I can tell, the worming agents are:

Piperazine:  ideal for camallanus, but hard on the fish.  And hard to get - it is chemically similar to viagra.  You can get it in pet stores in dog or cat wormers but those come with other nasty things mixed in to make sure that people won't take it.  I dont want to know what effects those other ingredients will have on the tank.

Levamisole: ideal for camallanus, also hard on the fish.  I got some pure levamisole HCL powder from here:  http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/   It worked a treat.  Charles lists a formula for mixing it with water so that you can use 1ml of the solution per gallon of water.  (Remove carbon first etc).  A single 24-hour treatment across all 20-something tanks I had at the time wiped it out for me.

Praziquantel:  readily available in fish stores (bottled as prazi-pro etc), but utterly useless for camallanus.  It does kill most other worms though, and is really easy on the fish.  It is safe enough to use as an automatic quarantine treatment.

Beware.. these worms dig into the intestines.  When they're killed, they detach and it can cause internal bleeding.  In badly infested cases, the fish then get bacterial infections and die anyway.   Or the worms can get tangled up when they die and get stuck in the intestine and block it, and start rotting inside. In other words, treating badly infested fish can kill them anyway.  But if you know you have the worms, it is the only way to break the cycle.

I do not know what effect this stuff will have if there are snails in the tank.  It might kill them all, so read up first.

But anyway, do put the dead fish in water and see if worms come out......   Not all of them do, but if they're dying regularly, check two or three.  

If any single fish has camallanus worms, then they all will have them.  This parasite is extremely contagious and will jump from one tank to another via nets, water splashes, etc.  You'll have to treat every single tank concurrently, and your nets, filters, etc.




The good news about such a treatment is that the (none / 1) (#14)
by unclescott on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 03:43:02 PM PST

tanks and younger fishes should come through in fine shape. Jodybr, if you haven't already, you may want to take a look at the recent Camallanus log on GL and the items on it in the Quicklinks. Several other medicines also have anthelmintics in them.

Peter, I was surprised by the criticism of  Praziquantel. Maybe it is the combination of ingredients in Prazi-pro. Doug Sweet, Aquarist at the Belle Isle (Detroit) Aquarium, has sung it's praises as a dewormer.

Doug has also unraveled tapeworms lodged inside minnows. The tapeworms were many times the length of the fish. (Yech!)

As with the salt, we have so many treatment options in the U.S., that if we are not comfortable with one treatment, it is nice to know that there are other meds in the same medicinal "family" which will do the same thing.

You mention Charles Harrison. He was selling and promoting another anthelmintic as even more soluble than Levamisole. All of a sudden it is no longer available. It turns out that the manufacturer went out of business!

All the best!
u.s.

[ Parent ]



Re: The good news about such a treatment is that t (none / 0) (#15)
by PeterW on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 10:26:31 PM PST

Praziquantel kills just about everything else.  Nematodes and camallanus are specifically not on the list of worms it kills on the bottle I have.  My experiences tell me that it is true.  I treated my male guppy tank (with an active camallanus infestation) twice with no effect.  With levamisole, there were dead worms all over the bare glass bottom the next morning.  That never happened with praziquantel (prazi-pro).

Yes, I know about the one that disappeared.  It was a capsule form of piperazine citrate, packaged as "Pipzine".  You could buy it in packets of 5 or 100 capsules.  The last time I checked, you could still buy them in small quantities on aquabid from people with a stockpile.

Levamisole is supposedly a bit harsh on the fish.  But it is nothing compared to the worms.  I believe piperazine citrate is actually the best camlallanus dewormer (least harsh side effects).

As an aside:
"Viagra is a synthetic heterocyclic piperazine derivative. Other pharmaceuticals derived from piperazine include antihistamines, antidepressants and motion-sickness drugs. An aqueous solution of piperazine is commonly used in the manufacture of polyamide resins, epoxy curing agents, and urethanes applied as spray foams, building panels, elastomers, and is utilized for automobile and appliance construction. In a restricted-use pesticide (marketed as triforine) it is labeled to treat a wide variety of food crops, cotton, tobacco, and many horticultural species for fungal infections."

Piperazine certainly seems to get around...

[ Parent ]



Re: The good news about such a treatment is that t (none / 2) (#16)
by PeterW on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 10:53:06 PM PST

BTW: unclescott: prazi-pro is simply praziquantel, no other active ingredients.  It lists its effectiveness as:
  • Flukes
  • Tapeworm
  • Flatworm
  • Turbellarians

Note, no roundworms or nematodes.

I looked up some of the other anti-parasite treatments I have..

Jungle's Anti-parasite medicated fish food contains:

  • metronidazole
  • praziquantel
  • levamisole
Jungle's effective list adds nematodes and protozoa to the list.  It seems they added levamisole for nematodes (eg: camallanus) and metronidazole for protozoa. I dont see why they'd add levamisole if it was already taken care of by praziquantel.

I did some more searches and it seems common (even for humans) to use something else for nematodes, alongside praziquantel.

I feel confident in my assertion that praziquantel is useless for camallanus.

References:

opt=Abstract (use albendazole for nematodes, along with praziquantel for trematode and cestodes, and metronidazole for protozoan infections)

The last one spells out what each is for.

[ Parent ]



Wow! Thank you for the info. Though I'm glad (none / 0) (#17)
by unclescott on Fri Dec 31, 2004 at 08:26:59 AM PST

it has been a while since breakfast! ;)

You got more on Jungle's medicated food than I could get in an e-mail to them on the more conventional anti-worming med. !

It is wise to underestimate, rather than over estimate which a treatment may do. It is curious what they omitted

Again, it is interesting (and probably logical) that our tropical fish meds are spin offs of things prepared to help human.

That Merck site looks searchable without a membership. Perhaps it has even more to offer.

All the best!
u.s.

[ Parent ]



Re: Wow! Thank you for the info. Though I'm glad (none / 1) (#18)
by PeterW on Fri Dec 31, 2004 at 03:42:46 PM PST

Heh.  One good thing to figure out early on is what the alternate names and species are for common names.

eg: tapeworm => cestode; flatworm => trematode; flukes, flagellates, hemamita => protozoan; nematodes are roundworms, etc.

That way when you're cross referencing drugs vs bugs, you can keep your sanity.  Or lose less of it anyway.

Human and livestock medical info seems to be a pretty good source of info about what these drugs are effective against.  For example, praziquantel is primarily for flatworms and relatives (trematodes), and protozoa (including flagellates) (cestodes).

Metronidazole seems to have several properties including antibiotic and anti-protozoa (cestode).  I believe its the drug-of-choice for the heximita (hole-in-the-head) protozoa (cestode).  The fact that it has antibiotic properties would make it extra useful in fish worming medications to reduce the risk of internal infections after any intestinal worms detach.

Levamisole is also an anti-cancer drug in humans as well as being used as an immune system stimulant.  In humans, it is sometimes used alongside praziquantel for the stimulation effect to enable praziquantel to work better.

For worms, Levamisole is a paralyzing agent.  They are often expelled alive.. hence the need to vacuum them up. (eep! I wasn't aware of this! See http://www.elephantcare.org/Drugs/levamis.htm under Pharmacology)

Praziquantel works by disturbing the worm's internal membranes.  They kinda self destruct by leaking into themselves.  Roundworms don't have the same membranes.

Another example.. a cat worming site:
"Some worming medications are effective against both roundworm and tapeworm, while others are only effective against one or the other."

"Drontal cat TM (Bayer)
Contains pyrantel (active against roundworm) and praziquantel (active against tapeworm), in a tablet form."

There's another reference for praziquantel not being effective against for roundworms (implicitly nematodes).  But that wouldn't show up on a search for camallanus or nematodes.

Another good guide is my wife's many-thousand-page pharmacutical guide and cross-reference. :-)

[ Parent ]



Re: Wow! Thank you for the info. Though I'm glad (none / 0) (#19)
by miskairal on Sat Jan 01, 2005 at 12:12:31 AM PST

Great stuff for the QuickLinks page!
--
Repeat after me,
I will read the Immediate Help
[ Parent ]


Salt??? (none / 0) (#7)
by fisher on Tue Dec 21, 2004 at 06:06:01 PM PST

Hi,

I'm not very old, and not very knowledgeable about guppies and fish, but I do know that guppies do not like too much salt. I think they actually kill the guppies. Tell me if i am wrong, but I am pretty sure of that guppies do no like too much salt!!!

Hope this helps:)
Fisher



Good point Fisher. Without sodium chloride, (none / 0) (#8)
by unclescott on Tue Dec 21, 2004 at 08:26:07 PM PST

all fish and other animals die. With too much, they/we will perish too.

Adding less than a teaspoon of granular salt per real gallon, in an aquarium, is not likely to be a problem with guppies. But if we keeping adding salt to our changing water like that, we can do great harm as the salt builds up in that tank. (This sounds like that Winter Mystery Deaths log again.) This has happened, though I would be hard-pressed to document it at the moment.

If Rift Lake aquarists use sea salt rather than the calcium-magnesium based cichlid salts, they can kill those fishes too. Jodybr is probably very familiar with cautionary stories about that.

If straight salt is added to really soft water, it can create an osmotic imbalance which actually seeks to draw crucial minerals out of the fishes' bodies! That can be the origin of another one of those "mystery fish deaths."

Salt is used as a treatment in many fish medicines because it actually irritates the skin of fishes. The irritation causes the skin to generate more skin slime. The skin slime can fence out or encase some ectoparasites, helping the fish to defend themselves.

Salt doesn't change the hardness of the water or its pH at all. It has a huge impact on the increased TDS (total dissolved solids in the water). Dropping a fish into water with several times the TDS (which includes salts like sodium chloride, the hardness salts like calcium, magnesium and some others, fish poop and other nitrogenous goodies, dust which blew in, ad infinitum...) can be a traumatic as dropping them in water a couple of pH numbers different or in water considerably softer or harder in hardness. If the fish doesn't die then, it may later because its respiratory and immune systems are severely messed up.

Ocean water is currently an average of 3.5% (by weight) percent dry matter. Most of that is sodium chloride. However ocean salt is composed of 80 elements - minerals.

Solar Salt is basically the production of table (or feed) salt by drying ocean salt in evaporation ponds (ironically also a habitat of brine shrimp - for a while). Probably it would be the best "salt" to add to aquaria. Not trying to necessarily plug the health food stores. One can also stop by an agricultural supply story and buy a 50 lb. bag of cattle feed salt for a couple of dollars.

Iodized Salt is ok. Not only has it been a boon to the health of people, especially in the more industrialized countries (vis-à-vis iodine deficiencies), but the addition of a little to an aquarium isn't likely to hurt guppies. Hard water fishes can actually suffer from an iodine deficiency. This is a malady sometimes knows as fish goiter.

http://www.curezone.com/foods/saltcure.asp
Is a site dedicated to making a case for using unrefined sea salt rather than the "refined" and definitely altered commercial table salt. You make your own conclusions about that issue. But the site has some interesting data about sea salt and what is in it. One of their arguments for people using unrefined sea salts is that too many needed trace elements have been taken out of it. That is not too different from what we have been saying on GL about using straight Sodium chloride, as opposed to marine aquarium salt or even better, a cichlid salt, if the water needs more "mineral" in it.

http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/seasaltmixes/l/aa090503b.htm
is an article on the chemical make-up of commercial marine salt mixes. Interesting the differences between them. Also striking is that all of them have levels of ammonia and nitrates higher than average seawater. That may have no influence or a modest effect on aquariums, especially crowded ones.

So yes Fisher, has the amount of salt built up too much in a tank, is a great question. It probably is not the problem in this case, but it should usually be considered

All the best!
u.s.

[ Parent ]



Table salt == bad (none / 0) (#9)
by Scott Lockwood on Wed Dec 22, 2004 at 10:49:15 AM PST

Iodized Salt is ok. Not only has it been a boon to the health of people, especially in the more industrialized countries (vis-à-vis iodine deficiencies), but the addition of a little to an aquarium isn't likely to hurt guppies.

Except, that table salt is coated in silica, which helps it to flow out of a container and on to your food. Silica isn't bad for us, but it can be bad news for a fish - as you yourself once pointed out to me. :-)

"I love to visit PetSmart's Tropical Fish Dept. to see what new diseases are around today." -- inkmaker
[ Parent ]



Re: I'm lossing a guppy a day (none / 0) (#6)
by gupepersonality on Tue Dec 21, 2004 at 05:16:17 PM PST

How do your loaches react to your guppies and how do your guppies react to your loaches?



Re: I'm lossing a guppy a day (none / 0) (#11)
by PeterW on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 02:46:42 PM PST

I had yoyo loaches and guppies in the same tank.  There were no problems except an occasional grumpy loach taking a quick lunge at a guppy.  It was nothing ever serious and I only ever saw it at feeding time.

The yoyos might have been responsible for keeping the fry numbers down a little.  But there were certainly plenty of fry turning up in the tank while they were in there.  I never saw them chasing fry, unlike the guppies which semi-regularly went after them.

I put salt in my tanks.  Be sure to use aquarium salt, not table salt.  Lots of packaged table salts use 'Yellow Prussiate of Soda' as an anti-caking agent.  That is a fancy, consumer-friendly name for cyanide.  (BTW: would you buy something to eat if it listed "cyanide" in its ingredients?)

The cyanide in table salt is safe for humans, but absolutely lethal for fish.  I thought I read that iodine (in iodized salt) was lethal too.

[ Parent ]



The jury may still be out on Yellow Prussiate (none / 0) (#13)
by unclescott on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 03:19:39 PM PST

of Soda. You are correct in wondering if the cyanide in it disassociates in the water. Chemist Charles Harrison can't prove it, but chooses not to be in a position to have to prove that it disassociates in the water, harming fry.

On the other hand, Wright Huntley, another old-timer in the hobby, in another salt discussion, has suggested

"Iodized salt is OK, but premium brands use silicates to make them free flowing. Those seem to clog gills, so use the cheap generic grocery brands that use "yellow prussiate of soda" instead. Rock salt, pickling salt and some kosher salts have no additives -- just pure sodium chloride. They are good, but harder to measure with the larger crystals, sometimes."

He has had no problems with fry dying with those salts.

As for iodide in the salt, a tiny bit is needed by living things. Guppies and virtually all livebearers are secondary freshwater fish, meaning that scientists feel that their ancestors "wayyyyyy back when" were marine fish. They should be tolerant of a little sodium chloride and iodine.

A friend and I, visiting an aquarist who had some fish with a glandular swelling under their gills, suggested that it might be "fish goiter". We recommended putting a little iodized salt in with the fish (which were killies accustomed to hard water). By the time we left a couple of hours later, the swelling on the fish was down and they were swimming normally.

I would suggest if that Yellow Prussiate of Soda was safe for humans (who will be running it through their digestive system), it is likely safe for fish. There are so many other salts available, they are certainly can be avoided.

If I needed it in a hurry and the only salt I had was an inexpensive bag of table salt with the Yellow Prussiate of Soda; I'd use it. :)

If the salt clumps, it is probably packaged without anything to make it free flowing. The salt from the 50 Lb. bag of cattle feed salt (probably sun dried sea salt and therefore likely containing useful trace elements) we picked up ages ago, cakes. So it is without additives. It only costs a few dollars from farm supply stores.

All the best!
u.s.

[ Parent ]



Re: I'm lossing a guppy a day (none / 0) (#10)
by maggie1270 on Sun Dec 26, 2004 at 06:56:42 PM PST

I have 2 kuhli loaches with my guppies and neither bother with each other.  The loaches pretty much only come out at night anyway, which is when my guppies are calming down for the night.
Maggie
[ Parent ]


Re: I'm lossing a guppy a day (none / 0) (#2)
by Scott Lockwood on Mon Dec 20, 2004 at 04:17:40 PM PST

Straght like curly shell.

Sounds like a Rams Horn snail. Considered good luck by many, a good snail to keep in a tank.

"I love to visit PetSmart's Tropical Fish Dept. to see what new diseases are around today." -- inkmaker



Re: I'm lossing a guppy a day (none / 0) (#3)
by Jodybr on Mon Dec 20, 2004 at 09:23:09 PM PST

Thanks, but could it be a type of snail to kill my guppies.  Every morning I find a new dead one for at least the last week.

[ Parent ]


I still vividly recall my shock as a school kid, (none / 0) (#5)
by unclescott on Tue Dec 21, 2004 at 03:06:00 AM PST

probably about 3rd grade, when I saw an apple snail in a very small bowl, eating the tail of a very sick goldfish while the fish writhed and struggled to swim away (all of six inches.) In a bowl that sized, the goldfish may even have been suffocating - what an awful way to go!

Snails, even the ram's horns, will pursue blackworms in feeding glass jars or bowls. The Malaysia livebearing snail is a dedicated carnivore, That is why plant people love them for their ability to travel through the gravel, eating left over food and leaving the plants alone. However trying to raise hatch the eggs of egg layers in a tank infested with them is an exercise in futility. So I suppose in rare cases they are a threat to the fish.

However snails are also a part of that aquatic process which begins to clean up dead fish in a sometimes astonishingly short time. I think that 99.9 + % of the time, the fish were long dead and the snails were cleaning thems up.

There are marine mollusks with a toxic bite and some species actually hunt fish. But the biggest threat of freshwater snails to adult freshwater fish is as a secondary host to some disease. If you have had those snails a while, they probably aren't introducing anything new.

By the way, (this is more in response to your comments further down the page) I think our kids' introduction to the birds and the bees began with a couple of established pairs of convict cichlids and Mexican rainbow cichlids (Herotilapia multispinosa) who would spawn on cue, every storm front, while we were all home on summer vacation. (One of the perks of being a teacher was being around home more then, college courses, curriculum development and workshops not-with-standing.) A strain of golden bodied, red-tail guppies, took the explanations a little further. :)

It sure is nice having them home from college. Except now I'm reading the books they bring me. ;)

All the best!
u.s.

[ Parent ]



I'm sorry that you are losing a guppy a day. (none / 0) (#1)
by unclescott on Mon Dec 20, 2004 at 02:18:14 PM PST

This is especially sad if your daughter is attached to them. As with cichlids, there are a zillion things which could kill them.

Please make a list of what you see. What are your water parameters which you keep an eye on? Are the fish disfigured in any way? Are their fins ok? Are their any marks or discoloration, on their bodies.  Are any discolored or hollow bodied?  Are they breathing or swimming any differently?

How long have you had the guppies? What did you do  in setting up their tank and getting them settled? It sounds like you must have several, if there is one to lose every day.

What kind of water are you adding salt to? If you have very soft water, adding salt (unless it is a marine salt) is dangerous because of the perponderance of sodium to the exclusion of all other important minerals. Maybe I'm totally wrong, but take a look at Winter Mystery Deaths, under Disease Prevention, via the Quick Links on the upper right hand corner of the GL homepage.

Please also look at the other disease write ups there. Hopefully there is a discussion which might ring a bell.

Although this sounds a bit goofy, if you have some seasoned water, pick up the number of partial water changes. If the new water is good for them, it can't hurt them. I'm sure cichlid people, probably (of necessity) are the most faithful of water changers and may make that same suggestion. Unless there is a specific medical need, don't any more add salt.

All the best!
uncle scott



Re: I'm sorry that you are losing a guppy a day. (none / 0) (#4)
by Jodybr on Mon Dec 20, 2004 at 09:51:53 PM PST

Thank you

I do regular water changes.  I have them housed in a forty gallon.  I watch them may times a day, I have not seen any change to their bodies.  It's really weird, the temp is around 79, I do use aquarium salt, have a home tester kit, I have been into fish for many years, started showing cichlids with the Tampa society.  I find guppies very gentle, beautiful creatures.  I moved so my home will not accommodate my 90, 150 or my fish room that was one reason we tried Guppies, like cichlids they have wonderful coloring.  The tank has been set-up for about 3-4 mths.  I am just wondering if at night the snails could attack the guppies as they rest.  I also have cory and panda cats, 4 horse-face loaches and 3 different types of pleco's plus plants, not counting the snails.  2 big apples, 2 big mystery, 3 ramhorn (per Scott)
One day they are fine and the next I find them half eaten and on top. :-(  I will check out the area you recommended, but I am very good about quarantining the fish before I allow them in the tank.  To keep the possibility of disease low.

[ Parent ]



I'm lossing a guppy a day | 19 comments (19 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
Display: Sort:

SourceForge Logo Powered by Scoop
Subscribe to our news feed
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. Comments are owned by the Poster. The Rest © 2002 and beyond The Management

create account | faq | search