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Her guts are falling out after giving birth to 9 fry

Health and Medicine
By spunkygirl61
from the spunkygirl61 department, Section Ask Guppylog
Posted on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 12:17:09 PM PST
Tags: (all tags)
Hello all, I've been looking high and low for some help with my guppies.  I am a long time aquarium hobbyist, but I've never ventured into the guppy arena, that is until my 2½ fell in love with their fancy tails and we bought a pair.  



Now, we have 9 fry, and thought we are delighted with them, I am worried about the momma.  It this sounds very stupid and uneducated, but it looks as if her guts are coming out now.  I put her in the breeding net thinking that perhaps she wasn't done birthing, but she got lethargic after 48 hours, so I released her.  Now I just don't know what to do.  There is a definite pencil eraser sized bulge coming from her gravid area.  It's pink and fleshy.

Any ideas?  I would be grateful to any help anyone could give us.

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Her guts are falling out after giving birth to 9 fry | 6 comments (6 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: Her guts are falling out after giving birth to (none / 0) (#1)
by PeterW on Mon Oct 04, 2004 at 12:14:19 AM PST

Oh no!  This sounds a lot like what happened to me a few weeks ago.  Does it look anything like this? http://photos.wemm.org/sickfish/DVC00190

If so, I'm sorry to say that my poor fish died.  After a post mortem examination, it looked like the stuff poking out the back was part of the egg cluster (?).  Mine had another 36 fully formed fry inside when she died.

I really don't know what to suggest.  About all I could think of was providing a quiet place away from the other fish so that they can't bother her.



This is very disturbing spunkygirl61 (none / 0) (#2)
by unclescott on Mon Oct 04, 2004 at 10:06:53 AM PST

As Peter mentioned, he has had guppies afflicted by similar problems. Another GL correspondent by the name of Amy had a guppy go through similar distress.

problems with fry    
Breeding
By Amy
from the Amy department, Section Ask Guppylog
Posted on Tue Aug 31st, 2004 at 20:08:09 PST

Peter made what might be a key observation when he found what seems to be a huge (for a guppy) tapeworm in the body of a guppy which had "exploded". I wonder if some of these internal parasites are so devouring the guppies that their body cavities are partly consumed and so weakened that internal items are able to plunge through the side of the fish or out the anal area. (Hope you all are some time from a meal.)

The growth of internal parasitic worms, whether they be tapeworms, Camallanus, Capillaria, other worms or afflictions like Hexamida makes me wonder if we shouldn't treat all new fish - either in that new tank or later on in quarantine - with a de-wormer! Maybe sometime after that a proprietary treatment of Metronidazol could be used for Hexamida.

Those diseases are among the common things which come in from the fish farms to the wholesalers to the shops. If we asked the shops to do those treatments, the price of the fish would probably double or triple. Unfortunately the conscientious shop which made those treatments and charged accordingly would probably be run out of business by competitors. :(

We do this with some other pets (not to mention children.) When adopted our dog (or when he adopted us) we paid the rescue group a not unreasonable donation of $140 for things they had done for him. That first summer, the $300 plus at the vet was more than I paid for medical care for our family. ;)  The schnoodle has been pretty much in working order since, but I'm sure that the young lady who lobbied for a dog is glad that dad is footing the bill. :)

There are several things which the pet industry, shops and more experienced hobbyists need to tell newbies more about. (Some, especially some publications and hobby groups, do a lot better than used to be the case.)

Maybe nobody should be allowed to leave the store. fish club or someone's house with out first having set up a tank. Then they should be told about the nitrogen cycle, careful feeding, the need for regular partial water changes - with seasoned water, quarantining new purchases, AND maybe the need for preventative - prophylactic for GG - treatments for worms and other parasites!

You probably don't want to go hunting for one of a type of medications call anthelmintics SG161. (But do take a look at the GL Quicklinks.) Most commercial de-wormers have an anthelmintic in them and will do the job. You may want to consider treating your tank with a de-wormer so that if other fishes of yours have the same internal (and therefore mystery) afflictions, they have a chance to live normal lives.

I would do the same for your wounded guppy. I fear though that she might not make it. I think it would be terrific if those eggs were somehow discarded or successfully developed, but I don't know. (This from a person who hoped the Chicago Cubs would make it to the World Series in 2004 too.)

Please let us know what you decide to do and what happens. The rest of us are rooting for you (cheering in Oz) and hope the best for you and your fish. As difficult as these things are to consider, you are also helping a lot of others to grow in the Aquarist's Craft.

I have run some of these incidents by a pretty sophisticated list where no one has responded. I may seek other authorities (next to whom I a newbie in terms of fish health) and see what they say. Time is so precious, I know that any response would not be immediate though.

All the best!
uncle scott

[ Parent ]



Re: This is very disturbing spunkygirl61 (none / 0) (#3)
by spunkygirl61 on Mon Oct 04, 2004 at 11:25:31 AM PST

Peter, yes, it does look something like this, very similar, if not identical.  That does not bode well, does it? =(

Well, I have her isolated now, and the mass has since disappeared, with no indication of any additional fry.  That is a mystery.  But, the mass is gone, and she is acting just fine.  I am going to give her a few days, and see how she acts.  I hesitate to treat her, if she is fine....but I don't want to reintroduce her at the same time if she has some sort of parasite....hmmmm....tricky here.....

Thanks for your responses, I do appreciate the help.

[ Parent ]



Re: This is very disturbing spunkygirl61 (none / 0) (#4)
by PeterW on Wed Oct 06, 2004 at 12:06:01 AM PST

I'm greatly relieved to hear that!  Does your fish still look absolutely enormous?  Wait-and-see is probably a safe bet so she can recover a bit more.

I have a sister fish to the one that died - I'm still worried about her - she has a belly a good 50% larger than all the others and she hasn't dropped fry for over 3 months now.  She's looked "boxy" at the rear for most of this time.  Every time she's been moved, her gravid spot goes pink.  I suspected she was aborting.  Its been three weeks since this last happened, I guess I'll know soon if she's ever going to have any fry or not.

As an aside, I have another fish in isolation that is showing clear signs of dropsy - the scales are sticking out in the classic pine-cone effect.  However.. this one is less than half of the size of the one I mentioned above..  She's been fed relatively little while in isolation and the pine-cone effect has been subsiding a little.  She's pregnant too. :-/  I'm really not sure what to make of this.  Of the possible causes of dropsy, two are bacterial - I found a lot of antibiotics claim to kill these but I've not heard of people having actual success with it.

I'm thinking about a de-wormer for all my fish, but I haven't finished checking up on side effects.  I think I read that some of them are really harsh on the fish, especially pregnant females.  Possibly even harsh enough to cause sterility.  Hence I want to check into it some more.  And I have bacteria in my quarantine tank to deal with first.  And more ich.  Darn, I'm glad they're still in quarantine and that I didn't pull some out early.

[ Parent ]



Peter, I appreciate your concern over side effects (none / 0) (#5)
by unclescott on Wed Oct 06, 2004 at 04:42:54 AM PST

from medication. We've had cases where the guppies did perish after treatment and our guess was that the guppies were unable to expell the dead worms. It is supposed to take 2-3 months for the Camallanus worms to mature - which may mean that your "boxy" female is full of Camallanus about to release their young. (They are livebearers.) She may be so injured that she will never be able to have young. Obviously there is no way to know what she is full of. That quarantine is wise. If you observe worms extending from her vent, they are releasing lots of young at that point. (If they don't find a host in a matter of hours, they will perish.

Dr Jim Thomerson reported that physically big killie from Venezuela looked great at the end of the season, but in at least one case, when dissected proved so full of internal parasites that there wasn't enough of the reproductive system left to parent any more fry. Sadly, life is hard and short in nature for those towards the bottom of the food chain.

The longer we put off deworming in situations where parasitic worms have been found, GL correspondance has suggested the greater the percentage of fry will be still-born and the more at risk the adults.

Your concern over the harshness of a treatment is also very legitimate. Because it is such a blend and attempts to treat so many maladies, Clout is one dewormer which one might wish to avoid. I can see where the commercial dewormer mixes, with an anthelmintic and antibiotic would make sense in advanced cases. I would go with the straight anthelmintic (if it was available) for early treatment.

Your skepticism on Dropsy is well founded. Gupppies of GL reported that he felt an early case of it had been corrected with an antibiotic. Usually by the time we ID it, unfortunately it is too late.

All the best.
Scott D

[ Parent ]



Re: Peter, I appreciate your concern over (none / 0) (#6)
by spunkygirl61 on Wed Oct 06, 2004 at 10:15:35 PM PST

She's still in isolation, but improving.  She's not large, but then, I never did notice her getting large in the first place.  I miscounted her fry, and ended up with 11, all of which have survived thus far and are healthy and active looking.

She does have periods of activity where the pink gravid spot gets bigger and starts to bulge, and then goes away again.   I am curious as to why, because the fry are only about 10 days old, at max I think.  Wouldn't it be too early for her to drop another batch?

Do you go ahead and treat for parasites and bacterial infections in cases such as these as just a precaution, or chance it?  Such a quandry.

[ Parent ]



Her guts are falling out after giving birth to 9 fry | 6 comments (6 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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