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Something is deffinatly wrong here...

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By Aerelynn, Section Ask Guppylog
Posted on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 12:24:16 PM PST
Tags: (all tags)
I've been observing all of my females quite closely the past week. I've noticed alot of them getting quite big but in the last week I've only found two VERY small fry.



I've been watching the males as well but mostly for behavior and obvious problems (such as white spots and fin rot).  Most of the males are pretty slender but I do have a couple of males which look...robust I guess would be the best way to describe it.  I just turned out the lights and was watching everyone in the tank in the event that I would have a female delivering, and I noticed something very horrifying with one of my favorite females.  She had 2 red, very thin, and very sharp looking things sticking out of her anus.  I've never seen anything like this before.  At first I thought she had just started pooin, so it started thin, but I watched her for about 10 minutes, and no change other then the objects would shift slightly in one direction or another (but would never visably bend).  I gently netted her with my fry net and took a closer look, and WHAM! they were gone.  I am assuming this is some kind of intestinal parasite.  But I'm not sure which kind it would be or possible remedies.  I'm about to go do a search on the net, but I wanted to post here first in case anyone came along soon.  I took a closer look at everyone else and noticed that there were a few others with something very similar (those things weren't as far out, or as big, or as red).  Also, not sure if this has anything to do with it, but looking at the pregnant females, at the front of their bellies, looking at them face to face, it looks overly stretched maybe? You can almost see into them I think, it's a little pink, but dark like I'm looking through stretched skin at an organ or something.  At any rate all this basically tells me that I need to do something effective very fast or lose some very lovely fish!

If anyone can help, I'd greatly apprecaite the advice!  Off to hunt down some answers in a net search!

Aerelynn

< Hey Scott, | Where does everyone keep their Fry? >
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Something is deffinatly wrong here... | 20 comments (20 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Ouch. (none / 0) (#3)
by Scott Lockwood on Mon Dec 08, 2003 at 07:01:43 PM PST

I'd put them to sleep, and start over. I'd bleach the tank, it's rocks, filters, and anything that's been in it (like the net) and then dechlorinate it all, and set it back up.

"I love to visit PetSmart's Tropical Fish Dept. to see what new diseases are around today." -- inkmaker



Nooooooo! (none / 0) (#5)
by Aerelynn on Mon Dec 08, 2003 at 07:25:17 PM PST

Is that my only option? Should I not try treatment?  I don't want to lose my babies again! I already had to start over basically after a fin rot incident =(

Aerelynn

[ Parent ]



sorry to hear that!!! (none / 0) (#6)
by red illuzion on Mon Dec 08, 2003 at 07:56:54 PM PST

i've read about that many times, forgot how those worms are introduced, gl, your guppies are so beatifull to have to destroy them.

[ Parent ]


*worried mamma* (none / 0) (#7)
by Aerelynn on Mon Dec 08, 2003 at 10:53:46 PM PST

I have no idea how they came to the tank either, I'm sure it was from a new fish and I just didn't notice them there... Some places I've looked at mention that the worms have a complicated life cycle so to not worry about them much as they won't infest the tank.  I couldn't find anything on the net tho that perfectly described or looked like what this fish has!!  I think they look like worms, but at the same time I'm not positive what they are, as they aren't quite "wormy", they look stiff really, not flexible like you think a worm would be.  I don't know what to do =(  It's my irridecent blue female that is showing these "worms". But there are about 4 or 5 others that are looking a little overly bloated, even for being pregnant.  I'm going to call my local LFS and see what the owner says.  Maybe he will have some ideas =(

Aerelynn

[ Parent ]



Oh no!! *cries* (5.00 / 1) (#1)
by Aerelynn on Mon Dec 08, 2003 at 09:16:30 AM PST

Ok, I found out that my poor guppies have something called Camallanus, little red worms that attach themselves to the inside of the gut. Not really many known effective cures for this that I could find.  I DID however find one VERY promising remedy that suggests that I use Levasole (levamisole hydrochloride).  It's more commonly used on pigs and sheep, but a Killie (sp?) breeder said that he had used this and the parasites were gone in one treatment and that every fish infected (at all stages of infection) had lived.  The site also goes to say that it's very hard to over dose, and it is safe for even the smallest babies (which could also be carriers).  Has anyone ever heard of this drug, and it being used on fish/fry?  My next question would be...where in the world do I get this miracle drug?!?!?

Hmm, is it odd to be so worried about "just fish"? I know I'm gonna catch hell from the hubby about this \

Aerelynn

Also here is the site with the drug information for any of you that understand this stuff! Wish I knew how to make it say LINK instead of the long version =P

"http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:UvAbXxrZVzkJ:www.inkmkr.com/Fish/CamellanusTreatment.pdf+Camallanus+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8">http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:UvAbXxrZVzkJ:www.inkmkr.com/Fish/CamellanusTreatment.pdf+Camall anus+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8



That didn't seem to work as planned, trying again (5.00 / 1) (#2)
by Aerelynn on Mon Dec 08, 2003 at 09:21:43 AM PST

Here's the link again auto format-on Scott ) hope this works =\

"http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:UvAbXxrZVzkJ:www.inkmkr.com/Fish/CamellanusTreatment.pdf+Camallanus+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8">http://216.239.39.104/search?q=cache:UvAbXxrZVzkJ:www.inkmkr.com/Fish/CamellanusTreatment.pdf+Camall anus+&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

Hmm, upon previewing the post, it seems to do the same thing as before, but copy/paste still works and brings up the right page.  I'm sorry about the long freaky rebellious link Scott.  I really do have auto format on and it's not working for this one that I can see =\

Aerelynn

[ Parent ]



The link is just too long (none / 0) (#4)
by Scott Lockwood on Mon Dec 08, 2003 at 07:03:28 PM PST

no big deal - next time, try doing something like this:

<a href="{really long link goes here}">{description of the really long link goes here}</a>

with no {}'s of course.

"I love to visit PetSmart's Tropical Fish Dept. to see what new diseases are around today." -- inkmaker
[ Parent ]



I would not destroy the guppies or tear down the (5.00 / 1) (#8)
by unclescott on Mon Dec 08, 2003 at 11:52:36 PM PST

tank. As you already know, treat them with an anthelmintic such as levamisole or flubendazole.

(Why can't medicines be one or two syllables? "Zap!" worm cure.)

My impression is that the whole tank can be treated. Rocks and plants should be safe after the treatment.

I don't know how deep the gravel would be before it is untreated, but camellanus is usually transfered from infected to non-infected fish when the host fish dies and the other fish nibble at the body or previously at feces. It can go for generations in a tank this way. Livebearers are among those particularly vulnerable to this infestation.

In nature there is a copepod (a tiny crustacean)which is the secondary host. That doesn't seem to be necessary in an aquarium. I have a hunch that camellanus may exist for quite a while in the fish before they are noticed.

Scott and Red may be right, that internally the guppies are too messed up to reproduce, even after the worms are destroyed.

But you know what? In a week to two weeks the tank should be worm free. I'd wait another couple of weeks to see if there would be fry if the guppies were old friends. ;)

.....

In related news, an aquarist took two containers with a small number of blackworms. One was just placed in an aquarium. The identical container was placed with a similar number of worms in a tank treated with flubendazole. The treated worms were dead in four days. The control group were still kicking!

This experiment needs to be repeated. It does also suggest that if you have blackworms in your gravel, you may want to wash out the gravel or pull it (and boil it while you are treating the tank). Otherwise a lot of dead blackworms could really foul the aquarium!

If I were you I'd take most of the gravel out in a soup pot and - was this G.G. who suggested -leave the gravel in an over at 250 degrees over night?

I would begin treatment of the tank at the same time. I'd throw the siphon tube in the tank during the 1-2 week treatment too. ;)

See also
http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/
http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/CamellanusTreatment.pdf


[ Parent ]



Uncle Scott I just wanted to thank you again (none / 0) (#20)
by maggie1270 on Thu Dec 11, 2003 at 02:53:37 PM PST

for that website reference.  He was very informative and although he was not able to help with my particular case he was able to offer some preventative solutions.  I will definitely continue to order products through them and refer them to all my friends!
Maggie
[ Parent ]


That's it! (none / 0) (#9)
by Aerelynn on Tue Dec 09, 2003 at 12:22:49 AM PST

That's the exact page I was using for reference on the Levasole.  Problem is, no one in town sells it.  I haven't checked for the Flubendazole yet, is that something a LFS commonly carries? How much does it normally run? The guy Charles from Inkmkr.com said that he sells Levasole but it's like $15!! It's well worth it as I could possibly lose around $100 of fish, and my time, and heartache.

Update on female: I have been watching her closely to make sure the worms haven't plugged her up. She's still pooin, tho it is almost clear. She's quite a bit more slender now then she was at 5am this morning. (no sleep for mamma)

And that's funny about the females not reproducing because of the worms, I fished a new batch of about 8 out of their tank this morning.  And even if they can't reproduce after the treatment, they will all always have a home with me till old age rears it's ugly head and spirits them away.

So should I go ahead and take the gravel out and start to boil it? Or should I just wait until I get the proper worm treatment?  I'm taking out the plants and baby grass along with one of the bigger rocks atm, just so there's better water flow to get the feces to the filter. I was thinking of taking out the gravel, incase not all my fish were infected, that way maybe i can keep it in just the few that already have it.

Also, I wanted to try to get a clear answer from anyone that may have seen this, or knows for sure what Camellanus looks like.  The things on my fish are not flexible, like you'd think a worm would look like. Imagine a thin, red, porcupine needle. There are (currently)2 sticking out of her, almost like a V. That's what these look like, so I'm still not sure exactly what it is, I can't find reference to something like that here, or any other fish desease search I've done.  Anyone know for sure about this?  Will she be safe if I treat with one of the above drugs, even if it's not what she has?

Gah, this is all so FRUSTRATING!!!  Thank you all for the advice so far, and for any given after this, I really appreciate it VERY much!

Aerelynn

[ Parent ]



Boy, these are gross! (none / 0) (#10)
by unclescott on Tue Dec 09, 2003 at 04:17:42 AM PST

If it looked like little fingerlike things sticking out of the vent and then they weren't there, that is a pretty good description of camallanus. The fingers are only the end(s) of the worm(s). My image of nematodes is not that, but that's what they are.

Heck there are good guy nematodes we use for fish food! (Microworms for instance.)

You know what, I would treat the fry you have taken out of that tank. They may be infected too, but not critically so. Normally I don't go for treating the tank just because it is there, but guppies are such browsers, I wonder what there infection rate is just nosing around droppings. (It is so hard talking about illness and their causes without raising these nasty topics.)

In further reading, Jungle's Internal Parasite Guard, Pepso food, and Tetra's Anti-Parasite Medicated flakes are also suggested. Garlic in the flakes may help prevent these disorders.

I would still bank on a few days with the flubendazol or levamsole. If you ordered the latter go with it. If you haven't ordered it yet, I would order the flubendazol. It dissolves a little better, seems to be less expensive and may have wider application in medication.

Please let me know if Charles acknowledges your order, if you already sent it to him, by tomorrow.

I did a google image search because I wanted to see if what I was envisioning was what you described. See if the third image matches up with your experience. Click on that fish and it will give you a couple other images.

http://images.google.com/images?q=camallanus&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en

[ Parent ]



Wow! (none / 0) (#11)
by Aerelynn on Tue Dec 09, 2003 at 05:53:09 AM PST

That is EXACTLY what they look like, tho on a smaller scale =) Thin, red, unmoving, unbending splinters.  Very scarry =(  I'm going to talk to the owner of my favorite LFS tomorrow, he wasn't in today and the counter girl is a complete dope.  I'm going to treat all three tanks in hopes that it completly exterminates those awful awful things. I've already taken out the plants and gravel from main tank, and will boil them tomorrow while I'm taking the gravel out of the fry tank to boil after that. Then I'm going to spread em out and let them air dry till this weekend, and after about 2 treatments from the Flu stuff I'm going to reintroduce the gravel and plants if allowed.  I'm going to have to turn off the filter at night in the main tank as there is nothing to slow down the current in the tank and I don't want to over exaust the poor things as they can't be feeling too good as it is anyway. I will put a small air stone in there just to keep things going a little. I'm hoping they will all come thru this ok, I did noticed that even tho their bellies are a little swollen, that they look nothing like those fish in those pictures! That's at least something to be thankful for =)

Thanks for the image link US and the advice!  Charles did get back to me about shipping that stuff, but I haven't put in an order for it yet. I will pick up some of that Flu stuff from my LFS tomorrow morning and begin treatment.  Cheaper is always better, as long as it's just as effective of course!  Anyway...now that I know what's going on and what I've got to do about it, I think I can sleep a little easier.

And with that, I'm going to bed! =D

wish me luck with the treatments!

Aerelynn

[ Parent ]



GL!!! (none / 0) (#13)
by red illuzion on Tue Dec 09, 2003 at 04:25:02 PM PST

gl aerelynn with the treatment.

[ Parent ]


LUCK ! :) (none / 0) (#12)
by unclescott on Tue Dec 09, 2003 at 10:51:50 AM PST

And my perhaps naive question: can one boil plastic plants or will that cause them to fall apart? If they disassemble in the heat, leave them in the tank when it is treated.

[ Parent ]


I think so (none / 0) (#14)
by Aerelynn on Tue Dec 09, 2003 at 06:23:28 PM PST

I boiled them before, just not for as long as the rocks.

Aerelynn

[ Parent ]



I had the very same worms (none / 0) (#15)
by gupppies on Tue Dec 09, 2003 at 10:27:17 PM PST

in one of my female guppies a couple of months ago. When I went to my LFS, they gave me some Fluke and tapeworm tablets containing Praziquantel. The female died unfortunately, but a couple of months down the track, none of my other fish appear to have been infected. Although after reading through this post, I will have a very close look at them again.

[ Parent ]


That's good news though that none of the others (none / 0) (#16)
by unclescott on Tue Dec 09, 2003 at 10:44:41 PM PST

in your tank have showed evidence of the disease, gupppies!

I wonder if that female died because the camallanus worms died within her body and took her with. Yeeeeccccch!

I have hear of someone actually removing dead worms sticking out from a fish using tiny forceps.

The closest to that I ever got was removal of sibling fry from throats and artificial respiration for an over adventurous swordtail.

What you did though, probably has saved the rest of the guppies in your tank.

Sounding like the same record over and over again, this is another reason why one wants to quarrantine new fish. A lot of the commercially produced guppies will be exposed to camellanus on the far, at the wholesaler's or in the LFS.

It's sort of like guppylog members going to work or school or the mall (or all of the above) and daring flu germs not to get them. ;)

[ Parent ]



Hmm (none / 0) (#17)
by Aerelynn on Tue Dec 09, 2003 at 11:39:06 PM PST

No one here seems to sell either of those medications.  Where's a good place to find them?

Aerelynn

[ Parent ]



The levamisole or flubendazole ? (none / 0) (#18)
by unclescott on Wed Dec 10, 2003 at 01:31:15 AM PST

Look up the page in this series of comments. :0

Go for the flubendazole for the reasons mentioned above.

I'm beginning to feel like a shill for this gentleman. :)

http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/
http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/CamellanusTreatment.pdf

However,

If you do order from him, I don't mind it if you mention my recommendation. He has been quite kind to me and others I know.

The work he has put in testing these anthelmintics is not a part of the day job. If he makes a few bucks after spending a ton of time researching it, that is not a bad thing. And the hobby is a more hopeful place for his (and several other people's) efforts.

He also has an article in progress which he will donate to one of the hobby specialty group publications. I hope he goes on to submit something to one of the aquarium slicks.

[ Parent ]



Finally! (none / 0) (#19)
by Aerelynn on Wed Dec 10, 2003 at 04:59:20 AM PST

Finally got back to Charles about the lavimasole, he should be sending it within the next day or two.  Thanks for the information U.S, I will be sure to keep everyone updated on if the treatment works!

Aerelynn

[ Parent ]



Something is deffinatly wrong here... | 20 comments (20 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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