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Any idea what's wrong?

Guppies
By gupppies, Section Ask Guppylog
Posted on Wed Aug 29, 2007 at 12:25:08 PM PST
Tags: (all tags)
My baby guppies are dying. I have read many other posts, but haven't come across what's happening in my tanks.



I have been keeping and breeding guppies for almost a year. About 6 months ago after losing my entire breeding stock and about 100 fry from a disease carried by a fish I bought, I started doing some serious research and am now running a quarantine tank. No new fish goes into my tanks without a 2 to 4 week stay in the quarantine tank.

About 2 months ago I moved house, and I am now on tank water, not being connected to the town supply. Chlorine etc related problems shouldn't exist, but I still add water conditioner. My guppies have been doing fine, until about a week ago when my babies have started dying. I'm sure it's not an introduced disease, nor should it be water quality. I do regular water changes and tests and keep all 5 tanks clean. The temperature in all tanks is kept at 26C. In an effort to save them, I have moved some bigger babies into my quarantine tank where some are still dying. Some of the biggest ones I have moved into my large 4 foot tank (maybe not a wise thing to do), but those ones are doing fine. I have noticed that the babies get a really pointy tail and they swim funny before they die. None of my adult guppies seem to be affected. I have 6 adult males and 11 females in the 4 ft tank, as well as the 8 smaller ones.

I run a box filter in the quarantine tank and the baby tank simply so the fry don't get sucked in. I will be replacing one with an under water filter soon.

I have never seen anything like this, can anyone give me any idea what might be wrong?

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Any idea what's wrong? | 20 comments (20 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
I haven't been feeding brine shrimp regularly (none / 0) (#8)
by gupppies on Fri Nov 21, 2003 at 08:58:35 PM PST

until recently. I have been buying live brine shrimp from the pet shop from time to time, but have started hatching brine shrimp myself a couple of weeks ago.

I did the flashlight thing, and didn't pick up anything unusual.

All the fry I moved are doing fine now, the remaining ones were still dying, so I ended up moving all of them (the ramaining 12 out of an original 70 or so), and they seem ok, fingers crossed.

I can only guess it was something in the tank, so I'm going to clean it out completely and start it up again.

On a slightly different subject, all the 20 or so fry I have raised to adulthood since moving to the new house have been female. Not a single male, is this just coincidence, or could it be the water?



same thing with me (none / 0) (#9)
by neothefishie on Mon Nov 24, 2003 at 07:47:15 PM PST

I've had that exact same thing happening with me! My female has had two sets of fry, and the first set has been entirely female. I'm not sure about the second set, I haven't had the time to check. I dont really know, but if someone who does know what's going on would please tell me, I'd appreciate it.
-neo the fishie-
[ Parent ]


genetics and sexuality (none / 0) (#10)
by Phry on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 06:30:28 AM PST

Interesting you mention that. We recently had a discussion regarding the existence of "XX" guppy males. According to geneticists, some 'male' fish may be born with XX sex chromosomes (like females) instead of the typical XY pattern. The field of fish genetics, however, is very uncertain and scientists constantly argue the method of genetic sexual determination. From what I have read, most biologists agree that guppies, at least, seem to have dual chromosome determination, much in the manner of human beings. An XX male mating with an (XX) female would produce absolutely no male children at all, as the fry would have no parent to inherit the male Y chromosome from. I believe I have such a fish at the moment, although I have been unable to get 'him' to mate. If you notice a similar pattern with drops in the future, you may indeed have such an XX male. Keep us posted...
     Another possibility may be water temperature. I have read in some articles that lower (?) water temperature produces a higher frequency of female births. I personally don't know whether this information is viable or not, and it still seems unlikely that ALL your fry would be female. Still, this is another scenario I have heard of that may (or may not) affect gender determination.

[ Parent ]


Interesting about the XX males. Temperature does (none / 0) (#11)
by unclescott on Tue Nov 25, 2003 at 06:19:40 PM PST

seem to impact gender for incubating reptile eggs. Rainbowfish mailing list people have recently suggested harder water correlates with more females. Some killie people would suggest more females for rainforest fishes with softer water. The Livebearers Mailinglist has batted this around too.

Also, sometime the age of a breeder is a factor and it seems like ratios will correct or go the other way as they age. (Anecdotal info....)

[ Parent ]



Interesting... (none / 0) (#12)
by guppygirl on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 11:50:26 AM PST

I've been getting mostly males in my batches.
(Of course I'm blaming that on the fact that people seem to want my females :-) )

I'm sure if someone came along and said, "Would you send me some males?" I'd be in the opposite boat.

Remember, the Rolling Stones...."You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometimes, you just might get what you need!!"

gg
:-)


[ Parent ]



GG, normally I don't thing that pH is as important (none / 0) (#13)
by unclescott on Wed Nov 26, 2003 at 02:40:56 PM PST

as hardness, but do you know what the pH and hardness of your male producing tank(s) are?

[ Parent ]


pH and hardness (none / 0) (#14)
by guppygirl on Wed Dec 03, 2003 at 03:24:23 AM PST

Hey unclescott,

In my breeding and nursery tanks the pH runs a little higher than my others, about 7.4.

I think that the hardness is a little higher too.
I haven't tested it lately, but my tap water is high pH, and rather hard.  
This tank usually gets mostly conditioned tap water because it is upstairs, and I'm always forgetting to bring other water up.

My KH runs between 2 and 3 degrees, or 35.8-53.7ppm.

My GH runs between 8 to 10 degrees, or roughly 140-180ppm.

Another thing with the spirulina, two of my "female" swords that I got from Pisces Moon, have now turned out to be males!!
(She thinks I'm feeding them Viagra for fish)

Roughly same pH 7.2 and hardness 9 degrees.
Weird, huh?

The last litter that I had did produce many males, and the mother is still pregnant. I fear, however, that she has been withholding delivery and have never had a female holdout this long.

She's still a rather small guppy, and eats well,
and I've tried all the tricks that I know. I guess I'll just have to wait.

I'm sure once the swordtails are moved, she'll "pop" a bunch out, I just hope they'll be O.K.

Hope this helped, sorry I took off rambling on you.

Take care,

gg
:-)


[ Parent ]



Not rambling, good info and commentary. (none / 0) (#15)
by unclescott on Wed Dec 03, 2003 at 08:57:18 AM PST

Parameters don't sound bad. We have one set of friends with five sons, another set with all girls (human type). Go figure.

Is there a raffle you should avoid just at the moment? ;)

[ Parent ]



Raffle... (none / 0) (#20)
by guppygirl on Sun Dec 07, 2003 at 12:16:50 PM PST

Not now, but in the past.

All of my siblings, and all of my husbands' sibs.,
had all girls, with the exception of my Godson.

Having spent many years around "high pitched, screaming, shrieking, fussy, snotty, bratty, little girls, I was blessed with two sons.

Don't get me wrong, I love ALL my neices.

I've been asked why I've thought we had boys, and my reply is, "Because there is a God."  ;-)

gg
:-)

[ Parent ]



sad!!! (none / 0) (#1)
by red illuzion on Wed Nov 19, 2003 at 04:21:18 PM PST

sorry to hear that, unfortunately its the fry your losing, i lost all my adults, no adult from the LFS lasted more than a couple months in my tanks. i have two males that are 4 months old, but they were born in there. other than that, i am lucky i have a trio in a small 3gal tank, that have made it for a month now, but i am afraid of moving them into the 10gal or 39gal tank, since thats where i lost my adults. gl, and i'll keep reading this post cause maybe we have the same problem, but i never saw any of mine die, they would die overnight, so the day before they seemed normal, and gone the next.



Your fry are clamping and curling up and (none / 0) (#2)
by unclescott on Wed Nov 19, 2003 at 07:05:04 PM PST

dying. Adults have not been effected yet... And you don't think this came in from the shop and you seem to have been doing a fine job of caring for you guppies off of well water.

I'm sorry. I can imagine a little of how incredibly frustrating this is. With conscientious care like you are giving, it seems like no good deed should go unpunished.

Have you been feeding your guppies brine shrimp? Have you gone to the trouble of hatching baby brine? Might there be left overs in the tank?

(I hope that right here your answers to the above are all no. However I have done that and seen the following with other species.)

Take a flashlight and shine it on the fry. Also take a look at the adults. Look closely to see if there are little tiny almost microscopic dots. These may appear as a rusty, gold or whitish sheen.

If that is there, your fish very possibly have velvet or Oodinium. It is not common among guppies, but it is known to attack them once in a while.

I wonder if spores of that disease actually float in the air. Or maybe the organisms are almost always on the fish in small numbers - and limited by a fish's immune system.

Over feeding brine shrimp seems to set up an environment where their population just explodes or "blooms". They can cover a fish's epidermous - both their skin and their gills. The pattern of losing first tiny fry, then small fry, larger fry, less dominant adults and dominant adults is often the way it attacks fish tanks.

It is very easily carried from one tank to another on your hands, with equipment or with that Murphy's law splash. You mentioned that you had five tanks and have some of those fish in a hospital tank - a great idea by the way. But also watch that tank and scan the fish with a flashligh beam.

Scrub down your hands. At the least dry out your siphon hose and bucket outside in the sun and weather. If it is freezing, so much the better. You may want to soak them in a 1 part bleach, 10 parts water solution.

If this seems to be what is attacking your fish, you may want to do 20-45% a partial water change. Gravel grunge the tank bottom especially. Add water as warm as what is there. Add 1 teaspoon of salt for every real gallon of water in the tank. Turn off the tank lights. You may even want to masking tape newspaper or sides of a paper grocery bag on the tank sides to cut down light.

Velvet organisms are protists which both parasitize fish and live by photosynthesis. The lack of light and medications interrupt the photosynthesis and hopefully give the fish's immune system a chance to fight back.

Many of the medicines sold to combat velvet (usually on Bettas, anabandids, rainbowfish, some pleco types and killifish) have a medicinal dye called acriflavin in it. One brand name of acriflavin is called Bamiflavin. The green of the dye may very well also interrupt the photosynthetic cycle of the velvet.

Aquatronics makes an Acriflavin Plus (acriflavin plus an antibiotic to help with secondary infections). Jungle markets velvet guard. Mardel has something - sorry I don't know which item - which seems to have been effective for aquarists. There are other offerings by the manufacturers

I would administer the medicine you select - IF this is velvet - according to the manufacturer's instructions. Three days later I would make another 40% water change and maybe add salt at half the original rate. Also re-administer the medicine - if that agrees with the manufacturer's instructions.

Continue to monitor your fish with that flashlight. Don't get infected water on it please. ;)

You may have to continue a regime of those water changes for a while more.

If you don't see tiny dots or a dusty sheen to your guppies, I'm sorry to have wasted your time.

And while I hope this isn't velvet you are up against, I hope this is of use if it is. :)

Let us know what it was.

Good luck and all the best!

unclescott

PS. Do an AltaVista image search to see what freshwater velvet or Oodinium look like. (There are marine species too.). Do a Google search to double check the treament of velvet. Some people may add more salt.

[ Parent ]



Baby brine ? (none / 0) (#3)
by Angelee on Wed Nov 19, 2003 at 07:18:59 PM PST

Hey uncle Scott.  I've been feeding my fry frozen bits of baby brine occasionally, not the live stuff.  I learned it off of a show guppy site.  Is it wrong??  Should I not be feeding them this?  
Angelee
"The Rocky Mountain Gupster" ANGELEE
[ Parent ]


Baby brine - especially newly hatched baby b.s. (none / 0) (#4)
by unclescott on Wed Nov 19, 2003 at 07:51:48 PM PST

is among the finest foods one can give to fry. The aquarium hobby and industry simply wouldn't be what it is without brine shrimp - especially the baby b.s. Live (within a few hours of hatching) is best. Frozen, if accessible to the fry, is very good. (They're loaded with those HUFAs.) As with all wonderful things in life, if we aren't somewhat moderate in what we do, there may be consequences.

It has long been the bane of killifish to get velvet. 99% of the time there was also an over feeding of b.s. and uneaten bodies lay on the tank bottom for over a day. At a certain point down the road - whammo!

It used to be that aquarists blamed the brine shrimp for being a vector for velvet. Several of us began to wonder though if it doesn't just set up an environment where the organism blooms. Shedd Aquarium vet Dr. Martin (aka Marty) Greenwell tends to agree.

This is where having a pond snail infestation in a fry tank will be a huge blessing. (Even those much loathed Malaysian livebearing snails have their uses - especially in guppy tanks.) People always tossing out snails, even killinuts, when asked if they ever have encountered velvet, will respond, "what's velvet?"

Right after daphnia cultures and plants, the starters I'm most asked for are pond snails. "Who'da thunk it?"

[ Parent ]



Pond snails? (none / 0) (#6)
by Angelee on Fri Nov 21, 2003 at 03:51:12 PM PST

  Funny you should mention pond snails.  I managed to aquire a couple of them (totally by accident) in some plants that I bought.  I let them stay for the time being, thinking oh it's only a few snails.  Funny thing about snails, they multiply rapidly.  So I ended up with an infestation that I figured if it got out of hand, I could just remove them either chemically or physically.  Until then they could stay.  Thank goodness I didn't get rid of them!!  Learn something new every day.
Thanks
Angelee
"The Rocky Mountain Gupster" ANGELEE
[ Parent ]


One of the other draw backs to zapping snails (none / 0) (#7)
by unclescott on Fri Nov 21, 2003 at 05:48:32 PM PST

(copper products certainly can do the trick with some) is that a big die off can really pollute the tank. One can carry on about the dangers of introducing any poisons into a tank too.

G.G. will make a good case for using loaches (although cruising back discussions here will also unearth Scott L's warning about skunk loaches and their socially unacceptable aggression.) That is a more effective biological solution, although I have reservations if there are baby guppies in the tank because of the din-din rule. (If they can fit in somebody's mouth, they are din-din.)

One Saturday morning, when our kids were pretty small, I asked them if they wouldn't mind removing snails from our living room 40 gallon - the lower tank on the rack. 500 snails later I was rather glad I hadn't offered a dime a snail. ;)

A plant mavin has also suggested unless the snails were unbelievably out of hand, most plants (if adequately lit) wouldn't be nibbled very much. The little rams horns (I especially like the reds) and the non-live bearing cone shaped snails behave pretty well.

Caveat emptor though: The Columbian rams horn snails (2-3cm in diameter, with that classy light and dark striping) are eating machines. In a tank of fry and Najas, they are an attractive cleanup corps and probably can't keep pace with the Najas - such a fast grower that I discovered the Aquatic Gardening Crowd really dislikes it.

Also, I am one of many stung when what I was sold as the relatively benign mystery snails revealed themselves as one of the 20 some other members of their genus - all known as apple snails. Those suckers had spawned repeatedly and I actually gave a lot of the young away as Christmas presents. At the time, sponsored an aquarium club where I taught. Imagine my dismay upon returning from Christmas break to see a denuded, previously lush 20 gallon tank in the classroom. Several of the kids, who had been sent home with snails, a Java fern each. a pair of guppies or killies, and several starters of water sprite, were dismayed to be the not so proud owners of big fat apple snails. :(

[ Parent ]



Thanks US, (none / 0) (#5)
by guppygirl on Thu Nov 20, 2003 at 12:27:43 AM PST

My fry tank has started to get a little funky,
probably all the bbs, that I feed them.

Time for a new home for some pond snails.
I won't need to tap your supply, I have plenty in the loach-less tank.
;-)

Thanks again,
gg
:-)

[ Parent ]



Lochness-tank (none / 0) (#16)
by Angelee on Thu Dec 04, 2003 at 07:07:15 PM PST

I had a situation a week back with my water resembling a Loch (greenish and cloudy).  Just awful.  I am almost anal about vacuuming out the gravel every 9 days.  I changed 30%ish and checked the stats on the tank before and after.  Nothing..Finally found out that one of my gouramis was showing signs of parasites (A-HA).  Right to the hospital tank with treatments all around.  Finally, a clear tank again!  I hate when that happens.  I know Uncle Scott is a "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".  I'm awful... "fix it til it's broke" tendencies...Always fussing.  Even my houseplants... the ones that love babying flourish (that would be all the ones that aren't supposed to grow here)..the ones that like to be left alone, like cactus..well you know.  I have to remind myself to quit all the time.    
"The Rocky Mountain Gupster" ANGELEE
[ Parent ]


Do you do house calls? ;) (none / 0) (#17)
by unclescott on Thu Dec 04, 2003 at 07:43:33 PM PST



[ Parent ]


House Calls? (giggle) (none / 0) (#18)
by Angelee on Fri Dec 05, 2003 at 04:13:47 PM PST

Does anyone else have soaking houseplants at any given time of the year??  (note to self: fishy's water for houseplants in large quantiies BAD, in smaller quantities GOOD..  send excess water outside to the magnolia tree and flower gardens instead)
"The Rocky Mountain Gupster" ANGELEE
[ Parent ]


And don't try storing that wonderful fishwater (none / 0) (#19)
by unclescott on Fri Dec 05, 2003 at 05:46:38 PM PST

fertilizer, for later watering, in capped gallon cider jars either. ;)

All the best,
u.s.

[ Parent ]



Any idea what's wrong? | 20 comments (20 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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