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Lyretail Swordtail | 4 comments (4 topical, 0 hidden)

That is an intriguing idea. But odds are that (none / 0) (#1)
by unclescott on Sat Apr 12, 2008 at 11:30:33 AM PST

it wouldn't work. The end of the gonopodium, normally designed to fit to the female, would be gone. While not technically, he effectively would have been castrated. It is possible to remove sperm from him and artificially inseminate a female but I am not familiar with the particulars.

You might do a search for artificial insemination of livebearers. Also try that with Xiphophorus, swordstails, Poeciliids and the like.

Getting a female red lyretail and a regular red male may be easier and less expensive than that laboratory/ surgical procedure. You will still have to breed the first generation to get roughly 1/4 lyretail swords in the second generation unless you were able to artificially inseminate a lyretail female. That is a big part of why they are more expensive than regular swordtails.

It may be that the supplier for that store and wholesaler (PetSmart has their own wholesaler) is being coy and only releasing males. That has happened rather often in the hobby's history.

For instance the first dwarf gourami of the sunset spot were only males. Someone was later supposed to have broken into the Singapore compound where they were raised and had stolen thousands of dollars worth of breeders at one time. It may have been that someone breed the males with regular females and reverse engineered the sport. Notice how few female dwarf gouramis one finds in stores these days.

The first dwarf neon rainbowfish (Mel. praecox) were males, initially retailing at around $50 or $60 each! Fortunately for hobbyists, though male praecox are usually red finned and the females orange finned, that turned out to not always be the case. Someone may have tried a spawning mop in a male tank and shazam! Eggs! Either that or they closely observed their praecox and noticed spawning/ courting behavior. Those participating rainbows could have been then isolated with a mop. ;)

Another idea (none / 0) (#2)
by New Guppy Momma on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 11:37:13 AM PST

If you have time and he isn't a really large/old fellow, get a female from the same tank, let her drop, and raise a few females (hopefully they'll be in a tank away from males...ie certified virgins :) and then once the females reach a certain size (3-4 months) turn them loose with Mr.Lyretail and see if any of them become Mommies. That's one way to find out.

Good Luck. I have a trio of lyre-tail/sailfin mollies I'm thinking of isolating in my other 10 gallon (just have to get a new filter as the one broke when I tore down from the move last summer. I dropped it on the concrete floor OOPS :)
Before all else fails....do a 25% water change ;)
[ Parent ]

Back a few exchanges ago, I mentioned that (none / 0) (#3)
by unclescott on Sun Apr 13, 2008 at 03:59:57 PM PST

the experiences of those who have raised these lyretail swords is that the extensions of the anal fins will render the males sterile in that they are unable to properly move their gonopodiums and inseminate a female. I suppose, in light of the experiences an aquarist or a couple of (Australian) aquarists had with the dwarf rainbows, one might try what you are suggestion.

New Guppy Momma, please correct me if I am mistaken, but lyretail mollies usually have extended rays on the outsides of the caudal or tail fin. The dorsal fins may be impressive too. However aren't the modified anal fins (or gonopodiums) the same as their parents among regular guppies? They should then be able to reproduce with females.

However Google Lyretail swordtails and look at the males. All fins are elongated. Females will have longer but less elongated fins. And it doesn't matter for them because those are not used for mating. That also happens with lyretail platys.

You are right on about not using the first fry dropped. And if the male was put into the aquarium the same day as the female when she dropped, if there was a chance that she could be made pregnant, that would be the time. In fact, since there may not room to keep and raise those fry, the male could be kept with her from even before the moment she drops.

If (and that is a pretty big IF) Josh's male was effective, some or all of the next batch could show the lyretail characteristics. If there were 30 or so fry, one would need at least a five or a 10-gallon tank to get them started. After a couple of months of militant weekly water changing ;) the larger dozen or so fry could be moved to a 20-gallon tank. Probably within three to seven months (space, temperature, feedings, water changes are among the variables) he should know if there were any lyretails.

If he wants to try that and understands that the odds are pretty slim that a male and female lyretail swordtail can produce fry (the Chicago Cubs probably have much better odds of winning the World Series), go for it. Just remember if that approach worked, the professional breeders and fish farmers would use the lyretail males in the breeding process. :)
*********
Here by the way is an article by a guy who was working to cross a high-fin swordtail with an albino strain. He details his two-year effort. Like New Guppy Momma, he used a 75-gallon tank to raise up that first batch of swords. The size of the aquarium (probably plus good maintenance and care) allowed him to raise them to adulthood in a a quick 3 to 4 months. At the time of the writing, when he was raising a fourth generation, he was still working on fixing all of the characteristics he sought.

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/breeding/Lynch_Swordtail_Breeding_Program.html

That site offers a lot of great reading for aquarists. There are several useful guppy articles. The following is an article about the developing of what he called "the ultimate of black swordtails the Black Hi Fin Lyretail." He
too is very big on raising the swordtails in large tanks and very carefully selecting the breeding stock.

http://www.aquarticles.com/articles/breeding/Drew_Black_swords.html

[ Parent ]

Re: Back a few exchanges ago, I mentioned that (none / 0) (#4)
by New Guppy Momma on Mon Apr 14, 2008 at 03:57:06 AM PST

"New Guppy Momma, please correct me if I am mistaken, but lyretail mollies usually have extended rays on the outsides of the caudal or tail fin. The dorsal fins may be impressive too. However aren't the modified anal fins (or gonopodiums) the same as their parents among regular guppies? They should then be able to reproduce with females."

Yes the extended rays on the tail are very prominent in my 3 mollies. Mr Sun(for distinguishing between the one plain sailfin male with no rays) seems to have the same shaped gonopodium as Mr Sail. And talk about impressive dorsals. Both my males are still quite young (4-5 months I'm guessing, I got them off freecycle. Great site) and their dorsals are still growing. But there was this one huge male at the pet shop that had a 4"square dorsal. He himself was about 4-5 inches long. He was beautiful and only $9.95. But I don't spend that much on a single fish. That was also my entire budget for fish that day.

They did have a couple lyretail swords at the shop the last time I was there. I might go today and take a water sample for them to test and maybe talk to a manager about trading in a few of my guppies for some store credit to save up for a filter for my other 10 to be used as a guppy grow-out tank. Or maybe I should put my little gups into the Beast to grow up. But they would become dinner to someone. The guppy 10 is getting a bit crowded with 3 dropping females :) Maybe a gluegun would work to patch the old filter back together so I can use it.......
Ok I'm starting to think again. Bad idea. Especially when I'm maybe a month away from being able to get a job at the fish store.

Time to find a place for my other 10. Maybe the other end of my daughter's dresser .......

Well gotta go fight with my 11 year old to get her going to school.

Before all else fails....do a 25% water change ;)
[ Parent ]

Lyretail Swordtail | 4 comments (4 topical, 0 hidden)

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