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I have a mosquito guppy crossbreed and I bred its sister but the babies look different | 25 comments (25 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: "I matched the pictures of the Endler's (none / 0) (#11)
by josh117 on Tue Jul 17, 2007 at 12:50:03 PM PST

they look exactly the same as the pics you just put up but i live in norther texas and theres 2 lfs that sell them as feeders.so im lucky i can get 12 for a dollar here butwhen i got them i got half a dozen babies, they grew up and come to find out 2 were mosquito fish, but there were 2 males and 2 female endlers and they produced so many pretty fish but i sold them back to the pet store for 5 times what i payed so its cool but i used to have one with a sword tail and it had an eye coloring on it

[ Parent ]

How do you know that the two fry were (none / 0) (#13)
by unclescott on Wed Jul 18, 2007 at 09:33:53 AM PST

Gambusia? They may have been plain female guppies, but that is not unusual out of a feeder tank?

It certainly isn't fair to ask you to get DNA tests done on them, but a horse just doesn't give birth to a beagle. That is essentially what you are doggedly (pun sort of intended) holding to. That would be very fast evolution. ;)

The burden of proof is yours. You need to demonstrate the unprecedented situation where a guppy has given birth to either a guppy x Gambusia cross or as you maintain, a full blooded Gambusia. That claim is indeed revolutionary in terms of genetics!

When I was in the Junior High, I ambled into the local Woolworth's fish section one summer day. The Fish Lady there told me that fancy guppies were a cross between wild guppies and fancy Bettas. I probably nodded and said something profound like "Uh-huh!"

Later that day I looked both fishes up in a little paperback fish book put out by Washington Square Press. As I read about livebearing guppies and bubblenest, egg spawning Bettas a little voice in my mind exclaimed, "Sayyyyyyyy....!"

I realized that I had been had. It is possible that that lady was that ignorant. If she was putting me on, she sure was good at keeping a straight face.

Aside from digging into fish reproduction with a vengeance, I learned the far more important lesson that that just because a person sincerely believes something, that doesn't make it true.

The landscape of history is cluttered with people who thought they knew more than they did. I'm not saying that there isn't absolute truth, nor absolute good, nor God nor a bunch of other wonderful things so far above us that we can hardly imagine them.

But people pervert the Genesis story and "make God in their image." They would make God a Republican, a Democrat, a Socialist, a Baathist, an Islamasist and a member of their favorite ethnic, cultural group and on and on. In Chicago He is either a Cubs or a White Sox fan. ;)

I once tweaked the feelings of a cichlid nut by suggesting that the neatest fishes to have were killifish. Must have said it with some feeling and sarcasm. Just for a moment, the look in that guy's eye (he would later go on to get his Ph. D. studying cichlids) suggested that he would kill me, given a chance. Another eye winked and we went on to be cordial acquaintances, if not close friends.

Probably a half dozen strategies are suggested for breeding guppies in Immediate Help here. When coaching aquarists in the breeding and care of other fishes, one learns that there are often several ways to "breed them." We even have the arrogance to call ourselves fish breeders when it is the fish who do the breeding. We merely make room for them and try to provide what nature does on a daily basis in their habitats.

Like all of us at some time in our lives, you have made a series of statements which are mostly a "blind leap of faith." (Watch out for cliffs.) We've all have gotten (and all will again get) our comeuppances for ferociously declaring things impossible to prove or even demonstrably false. Declare your Gambusia born to guppies. And I will suggest a neat new way to produce fancy guppies using a Betta and a plain guppy or a sure-fire way to bring peace to the Middle East in two months. :)

[ Parent ]

Re: How do you know that the two fry were (none / 0) (#14)
by josh117 on Wed Jul 18, 2007 at 02:07:00 PM PST

well i knew the difference because the gravid spot on mosquito fish looks to be on the outside. and they had lines over their eyes

[ Parent ]

Maybe I just am having difficulty with you using (none / 0) (#15)
by unclescott on Wed Jul 18, 2007 at 04:38:09 PM PST

mosquito fish for guppies. If you mean that I apologize. That is an old use of the name which hasn't been current among aquarists or biologists. Mosquitofish has been associated with Gambusia for many years and it would make sense that we not use that name for a different group of fish.

If you are equating the mosquito fish pattern of guppy with Gambusia I suppose the following could be tossed into the mix.

Gravid spots are tricky and there may be
a difference between them and some guppies. There are differences between some strains of guppies too. The size of the fish, its overall coloring, diet and stage of pregnancy may all play a role in the size of the gravid spot.

What do you mean by an outside location of the gravid spot?

G. holbrooki, generally from East of the Appalachians, sometimes has some black markings on males and evidently on females sometimes.
http://www.arbovirus.health.nsw.gov.au/areas/arbovirus/mosquit/photos/gambusia.jpg
More holbrooki according to the captions: http://www.yorkcounty.gov/eds/images/gambusia.jpg\
http://www.cnr.vt.edu/efish/families/poeciliidae.html

This was labeled as affinis. It looks like the very plain ones from Central Illinois and Missouri.
http://www.watergardenersinternational.org/fish/gambusia_affinis.html

This is supposed to be affinis in an Italian article. There is a "teardrop" under the eye. That is found on some Gambusia.

http://www.ica-net.it/Pascal/avigliana/fauna/pesci/images/gambusia.jpg

I don't see any line over the eye in any of the Gambusia photos. Both G. affinis and holbrooki have been transplanted so much that it is hard sorting out which is in a particular place. That is partly why they are generically referred to as just Gambusia. There are a bunch more in the Genus in Texas, Mexico and throughout several of the Caribbean islands and Central America. Three or four of the 37 species and four additional strains listed and illustrated in the Aqualog All Livebearers and Halfbeaks by Kempkes and Schafer will have that tear drop too.

Lines come and go among the remarkably variable guppies. In the several pages of the Aqualog photos of wild and feral guppies, a few of them has a horizontal line extending from just behind the eye across the body. The wild guppy gravid spots were also rather different one from another. Some species of Gambusia will be lined too, though those vary according to species and seem to be the same for a particular species. I didn't find lines over the eyes of Gambusia.

Who knows what can happen among aquarium fish? The odds are still terrifically likely that the fish with lines above the eyes are just different guppies.

I think that you just like to attach mosquito fish to plain guppies. Please don't. :)

[ Parent ]

Re: Maybe I just am having difficulty with you usi (none / 0) (#16)
by josh117 on Wed Jul 18, 2007 at 07:51:18 PM PST

my gambusia were so pregnant that it looked to be the coloring of the fish until it gave birth(i got 300 babies from the first pregnancy)but i mean i dissapearing line over the eyes as in the mosquito guppies dissappearing colors. it didnt have them above the eyesit was pointing at an angle going down. in this link is the line im talking about
http://www.liveaquaria.com/images/products/large/p_89572.jpg
im not attaching mosquito fish to plain guppies. i get most of my mosquito fish from petco when they get them in their goldfish tanks but if they dont have any when i want them i got to pet-o-rama and get them. but its been a real downer since they swiched from endlers, they had some pretty ones.but im going to sell my baby mollies since they arent babies anymore and put all of my guppies into straight salt water(livebearers dont go into shock, i tested it, not even babies)i know cruel i was just so tired of people telling me they had to be acclemated until someone told me they can just be put into it straight, but i put my male guppies in there to stop them from breeding with the females so they can finish the 6 upcoming pregnancies i can breed my japanese blue gambusia/guppy.i just got about 25 new crossbreeds, me and my mom watched her give birth because she wont eat her babies it makes it a heck of alot easyer because i still have all 25which is really a big break though for mebecause her sister is with her and her babies. sorry to write so much.

[ Parent ]

I'm still having trouble understanding all that (none / 0) (#17)
by unclescott on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 09:05:22 PM PST

you are saying. Thank you for clarifying that you are getting Gambusia. Interesting that they should be in the goldfish tank, though they should survive the temperatures the goldfish are kept at.

"my gambusia were so pregnant that it looked to be the coloring of the fish" and what coloring is that? How is its color different from what it would normally have?

"but i mean i dissapearing line over the eyes as in the mosquito guppies dissappearing colors. it didnt have them above the eyesit was pointing at an angle going down. in this link is the line im talking about"

Ah! You mean the line BELOW the eye, which I was calling a teardrop in the cases of a few other Gambusia species. Though I didn't Google a shot of a common Gambusia with that, I'm pretty sure I have seen that kind of line extending from the eye to a point below it too. Ok, that helps make the case that you have Gambusia.

"im not attaching mosquito fish to plain guppies." So what are you referring to as "mosquito guppies"? Are you using that term interchangeably with Gambusia and only Gambusia?

"but its been a real downer since they swiched from endlers, they had some pretty ones." I'm still pretty sure that you saw feeder guppies even though at least one other correspondent to GL feels that they pulled Endler's males from a feeder tank. That person could distinguish Endler's from the feeder guppies. You didn't see any difference in the fish in the guppy and Endler URLs.

Interesting about the moving of male guppies to the straight salt water. Fish seem to be able to be moved to higher mineral levels (as opposed to lower one and to a higher pH as opposed to a lower one. They will probably be fine.

Understand though if you drop them into water with much lower mineral content without acclimating them they will seem fine for a while too. But some of their gills may hemorrhage and this may leave them vulnerable to suffocation or attack by disease organisms a week or three later. Please make your changes gradually going in that direction.

I'm impressed with your desire to isolate your females from the males. That six drops may be kind of an average between 4 and 8.

Are the males in the salt water because they are sharing the tank with marine fish? Sometimes we need space and have to improvise. Why else would you go to the trouble and expense of putting them in that? They are known to have been carried by flooding streams in Trinidad to the ocean. There was a time when guppies were popular candidate for cycling marine aquariums. Being secondary freshwater fish the guppies can live brackish or marine water until the larger predatory population in the marine habitat catches up with them.

"my gambusia were so pregnant that it looked to be the coloring of the fish until it gave birth(i got 300 babies from the first pregnancy)"

This may be where the confusion came in. They would be the first to agree that their record figures for most fish will be increased, but the ALA (American Livebearer Association) keeps records of record spawns for over 175 different species and commercial strains. The record recorded for Gambusia affinis is listed as 68. Their record for Gambusia holbrooki was posted as 113. (Both were registered by Canada's Jim Robinson.) None of the other 21 Gambusia listed come close to that. The only livebearer in the list with more than 300 fry in a drop was a domestic swordtail.

Here's what I think happened. You saw a pretty good sized female Gambusia dropping her fry. Probably a couple other fish, most likely guppies also dropped batches of fry. Actually there would likely have to be several batches of fry to get 300 o the head. You probably have mixed guppy and Gambusia fry together.

No wonder some resemble Gambusia and some resemble guppies. That is because some are Gambusia and some are guppies. :)

This is why aquarists in many specialties (those who keep livebearers, killifish, cichlids, Betta species and even just guppies) strongly urge aquarists who have different strains of a species and closely related species never mix their fish, except maybe under closely controlled experimental conditions. Otherwise they will be plagued by a huge mess of mixed youngsters.

"i can breed my japanese blue gambusia/guppy.i just got about 25 new crossbreeds, me and my mom watched her give birth because she wont eat her babies it makes it a heck of alot easyer because i still have all 25which is really a big break though for mebecause her sister is with her and her babies."

Please don't use gambusia/guppy. Aside from spelling, that fish is one or the other. If she has blue in her tail, she is a guppy.

"...i can breed my japanese blue gambusia/guppy.i just got about 25 new crossbreeds, me and my mom watched her give birth because she wont eat her babies it makes it a heck of alot easyer because i still have all 25which is really a big break though for mebecause her sister is with her and her babies."

I would bet that if you raise the 25 fry from that fish, they will not be crossbreeds. They will also be guppies. :)

[ Parent ]

Re: I'm still having trouble understanding all tha (none / 0) (#18)
by josh117 on Thu Jul 19, 2007 at 09:54:37 PM PST

well ignore the coloring thing buti didnt have any female guppies at the time because they had all died and i had no babies then i bought 5 mosquito fish and my really small one i had put separatly into my 5 gallon with a snakeskin endler i got online and it was flooded with babies you couldnt see the wall behind it thats all i was saying because i had to move them and well like 3 quarters of them died adn about 60 lived so i fed them to my goldfish. tommorow im going to go to the pet store, get a blonde tux guppy, go to the other pet store get 2 female gambusia, and then put them into my 5 gallon. the last time i tried a blonde tux with my gambusia it was in my bull frog tank because he didnt eat gambusia so i put him in and i look at my 20 gallon for a split second and he was gone and im like wtf and i have a fat frog staring at me i mean i hated him for that but he died so i started breeding my albino molly with my guppies but the the female died so i just gave up and sold 90% of my fish and kept a pair of mollies, a pair of swordtails, and a pair of guppies and i now have 3 tanks of mollies and guppies. i have a blonde tux female im breeding her with my light blue japanese guppy im wondering what will come out because her last 2 litters were red snakeskins which i plan to sell once they grow up to aduldhood.

[ Parent ]

Thank you for sorting some of that out. (none / 0) (#19)
by unclescott on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 06:36:11 AM PST

As all of us grow as aquarists we need to sort through confusion and misinformation. Do be careful about who you keep with whom.

I applaud your seemingly insatiable curiosity about fishy relationships. I'm pretty sure your local fish shop cherishes the guppies you bring in. Locally raised fish tend to be much more healthy and easier to acclimate to local aquariums than stock brought in from far away.

Since most aquarists don't try to breed their fish or are actually more interested in what will appear from a somewhat random mating of guppies, those red snakeskins should be a hit. If you eventually try showing guppies or breeding for competition, you my find yourself getting a little more selective. And in effect, by sequestering that one female, you seem headed that way now. :)

[ Parent ]

Re: Thank you for sorting some of that out. (none / 0) (#20)
by josh117 on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 01:29:16 PM PST

right ow my red tiger guppy is giving birth to little ones. i have about 30 newborn in with my 2 show guppies (male loves to be surrounded by babies hes too protective) i found out today i have a silver molly with pop eye so i was like great so i bought medicine from petco and they had this beautiful virgin blonde tux female guppy it was ammazing and the guppies i gave to petco the refused to sell (along with their fry) but they were shutting down the tank they were in so i know this employee there he gives me alot of free stuff along with all the other people there but im guessing he took them home. i completly got rid of the half black guppies they are way to hard to keep a good strain but i found out today my albino molly gave birth but my stupid guppy i got from petsmart ate them all but i put the albino male and female into a breeder box for about an hour and then let them out. i didnt mean to make the redsnake skins but they ust happened because i thought my blonde tux guppy was a blank until she got the slightest bit of color. i have a question about her gravid spot its pink and shes not albino and ive never seen one like it i need to know why, but they fry arent albino either. but she had her load 2 weeks ago and my blue show guppy got her pregnant so ill have to see what comes out

[ Parent ]

the big box stores are owned by corporations (none / 0) (#21)
by unclescott on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 03:21:13 PM PST

who often deal with a specific wholesaler, that may also be owned by the company. Local employees are stuck with whatever corporate policy they have. I would like to think I might do some creative trading for neat new fish, but probably that fouls up their inventory. ;)

Unfortunately (from the perspective of the aquarist) they miss out on the opportunity for some neat fish they can't get. And as mentioned local fish have grown up in the local water supply often are healthier and should adjust more easily to local aquariums.

Gray guppies have a fair amount of melanin (black) pigment. Those spots make their bodies look gray. I'm familiar with gold, which has a lot fewer spots and albino, which isn't supposed to have any melanin spots.

Obviously the fewer or smaller black pigment cells or chromatophores, the lighter the guppy's skin. That would also apply to the gravid spot and if the fry are consistent, the fry's golden coloration would also be quite light. I have never intentionally bred a gray to a gold but I would guess her spot (with the gray fry) would be a tad darker.

I did have to look up blonds. Is this pretty much the image of your blond?
http://www.pbase.com/tomsview/image/43598336

The site below suggests that blonds don't have fewer dark cells, but that their gray pigment cells are much small than usual. That is interesting because the overall effect is much the same as having even fewer (regular black) cells as in the case of the golds and they are supposed to be even lighter in color. Not surprisingly the gravid spots and fry follow suit.

grayhttp://guppyplace.tripod.com/Colours.html

The albinos of course have no melanin cells at all. Some people who study fish speak of degrees of albinism and might include all melanin reduced fish in that crowd. I was also surprised to learn from a James Langhammer presentation that different gene or gene combinations may control albinism differently in different guppy strains!

If we keep our regular gray guppies over a really light-colored gravel or sand, those guppies will show a little lighter color. Their systems automatically attempt to adjust to the substrate (often the gravel or glass). That is why we keep them with darker gravel if we want their colors to really shine. (Of course decorations such as plants and faithful water changes play their parts too.) I'm surprised by some shops that use mostly lighter gravel. I guess they can see and remove dirt more easily and can more conveniently inventory the fish, but they lose a selling point.

I believe the tenancy to show dark colors from the dorsal view and light to white colors from the ventral view is called countershading. This helps shield them from predators. Especially if there is some cover, it is very hard to see a still fish in water with a muddy bottom. Since the sky is light, might undersides present less of a silhouette.

[ Parent ]

Re: the big box stores are owned by corporations (none / 0) (#22)
by josh117 on Fri Jul 20, 2007 at 04:00:24 PM PST

that guppy is close to mine exept mine kept its fry for about 12 weeks and the spot became ruby red like it is now and it grew amazingly large not being virgin but its mother had a black spot and was a very small one im wondering how it couldbe like that because they are exactly alike

[ Parent ]

Her mother probably had one gene for gray G (none / 0) (#23)
by unclescott on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 06:05:46 AM PST

on the body body and one for blond. The father was either blond or Gb (grey blond) and the b sperm fertilized a blond egg and that was her. (The capital initial is the dominant gene.)

Is she red? Then the coloration of the gravid spot would be expected.

http://www.fullredguppy.com/gup6.jpg

If she does not have any red in her, pick up the frequency of partial water changes and watch her carefully. Any extra TLC is good. Probably she's ok, but the coloration worries me a bit.

All the best!

[ Parent ]

By the way, this thread has been interesting (none / 0) (#24)
by unclescott on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 06:09:31 AM PST

and is increasingly a lot of fun for me. We are however wandering from the original themes.

It is your call, as to whether to continue here or starting - as a diary. Then we have a little more space on the page. :)

[ Parent ]

Re: By the way, this thread has been interesting (none / 0) (#25)
by josh117 on Sat Jul 21, 2007 at 08:23:17 AM PST

yeah it has been intresting ill start a diary

[ Parent ]

I have a mosquito guppy crossbreed and I bred its sister but the babies look different | 25 comments (25 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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