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Levamisole Hydrochloride killed our fish | 23 comments (23 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: Levamisole Hydrochloride killed our fish (none / 0) (#3)
by Scott Lockwood on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 06:40:40 AM PST

More detail is really needed, but, it sounds to me like you overdosed your fish. What were the water conditions? How recent was your last water change? How bad was the infection?

Personally, having done this dance before, I'd rather over medicate, and retreat in a few days. You've just found out why the hard way.

I'm very sorry about your fish. I hope you don't quit the hobby due to this setback.

"I love to visit PetSmart's Tropical Fish Dept. to see what new diseases are around today." -- inkmaker



Re: Levamisole Hydrochloride killed our fish (none / 0) (#7)
by Katastic01 on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 08:29:12 AM PST

I just spoke to my husband who is the one that portioned out the medication (I'm not too confident in that area).  I wanted to get the specific details on how much and how he came up with the numbers.  Here's what he said:

The instructions on this site state 695 mg per 10 gal.  For the 30 gal tank I just multiplied by 3 which gives just over 2 grams.  Using the oz measurement from the first page of .027oz per 10 gal gives .081 oz for 30 gal.  If you convert .081 oz to grams by multiplying by 28.35 you come up with 2.296 grams.  That is how we came up with the 2 gram treatment.  Do you believe this is too much for 30 gal?  

[ Parent ]



A tad high but no. You have probably already seen (none / 1) (#9)
by unclescott on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 09:04:48 AM PST

my speculation about mineral content in your water (which at times I would kill to possess.)

[ Parent ]


Re: A tad high but no. You have probably already s (none / 0) (#11)
by Scott Lockwood on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 09:28:42 AM PST

Actually, in fish who's health is already severely compromised, it could push them over. I too suspect that it was already too late for other reasons, but OD'ing the fish likely didn't help. Also, it's telling that they basically keeled over once the medication was applied. I suspect that it was the final straw, but that shouldn't minimize the importance of that straw...

"I love to visit PetSmart's Tropical Fish Dept. to see what new diseases are around today." -- inkmaker
[ Parent ]



Re: A tad high but no. You have probably already s (none / 0) (#13)
by Katastic01 on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 04:27:31 PM PST

I have a question on the OD comments.  Are you saying that the amounts listed here http://www.guppylog.com/story/2006/4/29/164717/627 are incorrect?  The math in those instructions leads to 2+ grams for a 30 gallon tank.  We used 2 grams so I'm not seeing how that was an OD of medication.

Another interesting thing is that only two of the fish acted sick; the rest seemed happy and healthy but we were treating since we figured the infection had spread.


[ Parent ]



Re: A tad high but no. You have probably already s (none / 0) (#16)
by Scott Lockwood on Thu Apr 26, 2007 at 07:50:21 PM PST

Not saying that at all.

What I have said repeatedly is that we need more data about the water in this particular tank.

"I love to visit PetSmart's Tropical Fish Dept. to see what new diseases are around today." -- inkmaker
[ Parent ]



I don't think it is OD-ing. That is by your (none / 0) (#14)
by unclescott on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 07:33:49 PM PST

figuring just above 2 grams. That is a little stronger than the commercial combos. Charles suggests a timidness by the companies making and dosing pharmaceuticals anyway. With other stuff there seems to be a little flexibility in dosage.

You and your husband were going by a slightly different set of instructions. You were using Lockwood's figures from his exploration of ratios for medication. I was going by Charles' 5 grams per 100 gallons or a gram per every 20 gallons. As a decidedly un-medical person, I simply don't know if the extra half a gram would make too much of a difference.

I notice in re-reading more of the conversations in http://www.guppylog.com/story/2006/4/29/164717/627
that Charles didn't go, in the case he alluded to, for a real long time. He treated for 36 hours, though he planned for 24 hours. He notes that when he re-treated those fish 2 weeks later, he stopped after only 20 hours "as it was VERY stressful on my fish".

Certainly that was still a huge time compared to the 30 awful minutes your fish endured.

So he has had difficulty in one situation too. I do know of other comments in programs where he recommends going a longer than the above case. He doesn't say why his fish were stressed, he just moved them out. So I guess we really need to watch them!

Could you try one obviously infected fish in a smaller container?

I've treated with three different anthelmintics, two in one commercial preparation in some cases. I didn't see the fish all that stressed. But I was treating new fish in a preventative mode (and if they expelled worms, they would probably have been smaller). The other treatments were with Praziquantel for anchor worms which infest gills when small and the fish's skin when large. As they were killed, they would just have fallen off.

Thank you for those water figures. I must have confused them with someone else's. (I owe you big time for that gaff.) Your tap certainly offers hard enough water for guppies. In fact you don't often want to top off evaporation with tap water and let it get continually harder.

And I have the testimony of a couple of people that after a point anthelmintics are hard to dissolve anyway. They vary by chemical.

Scott L's editorial introduction kind of indicated then that he felt that there was overdosing. Later he mentions that he would like to check with a friend at Shedd Aquarium and that he wonders if the issue was overdosing.

I may e-mail a URL of this discussion to Charles. His fish at least one time were awfully stressed too. Both of you removed your fish and their condition improved among the survivors.

If the cause of that wasn't over dosing, was the problem with the reaction of the internal worms and what it was doing to the fish? I don't really know what happened.

You asked about other treatments. For a while Flubendazole was preferred over Levamisole. Then it was unavailable for a time. I have purchased some of that from Charles. He has an ad and an article on that at the bottom of his home page. With the difficulty you have with having to get prescriptions through vets and the prices one must pay, I don't know if I should mention that.

All the best!

[ Parent ]



Re: Levamisole Hydrochloride killed our fish (none / 0) (#5)
by Katastic01 on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 07:07:20 AM PST

I hope that my last post included enough detail.  Another detail that I forgot to include was that in the last two weeks or so, two of my females had miscarriages.  Is that normal or related to this condition?

[ Parent ]


Sorry about the miscarriages. That certainly isn't (none / 0) (#6)
by unclescott on Wed Apr 25, 2007 at 07:53:46 AM PST

normal. It often here is because someone moved the very pregnant females in their last week or two. See  MY GUPPY FINALLY FINISHED GIVING BIRTH! by Thride

It could have been the treatment, but if I were a betting person I would suggest that the food taken by the Camallanus prevented the fry from developing normally.

If your guppies are able to expel the dead and dying worms, you should find some of the guppies to actually be quite slim. Field studies have show that some adult fish, after a few months, look really healthy and robust but that internal parasites have  destroyed their internal reproductive organs. I hope that is not the case here.

[ Parent ]



Levamisole Hydrochloride killed our fish | 23 comments (23 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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