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Dead: 32; Alive: 4 (one questionable) | 6 comments (6 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: Dead: 32; Alive: 4 (one questionable) (none / 0) (#1)
by Alisa on Wed Dec 13, 2006 at 08:04:10 PM PST

I would just do it the old fashioned way with a pair of fish and some fast growing stem plants and java moss.  I think it takes me two weeks to get the water to a fish friendly state.
If you'd like, I can send you a few plants and moss in an envelope, but I'm not sure if they'd end up frozen in your part of the country.  Also, I don't think it would be enough to absorb for a 10 gallon.  But it could be a start!




Guppy fry don't volunteer to die. It is easy to (none / 0) (#2)
by unclescott on Thu Dec 14, 2006 at 01:15:51 AM PST

guess, at least a little, how much you care for them and how sad their deaths have been for you. Odds are they either died of some disease or something in the water which didn't agree with them.

If they were fine until in the new water, it was probably something in the water. (Hope so, if it was a disease, that was taken to the 20.) It is disconcerting to wonder if  the municipal water water department put something new or more in the water. That may be unfair and scapegoating them, But it does happen and some have be casual about announcing changes. (Entire fishrooms have been wiped out.) Is it also possible that something inadvertantly got dropped into the water? (Thermometer cracked and mercury leaked? Heater cracked?  electronic leaks happen...) You may not know until the tank is drained. I'm assuming that the prime was sufficient in quantity.

Unplug everything before going in there. Maybe use  those cheap, disposable, medical gloves.

Just brainstorming. I'm assuming the gravel is just aquarium gravel, not something from the garden center stored next to the Ortho products or a coated gravel cracking open? Was there anything in the house or nearby - someone spraying for wasps, furniture striping, something used to clean drains, an anti-insect pest strip, anti-algae treatment of a shower, even paint and on and on - which might have harmed them through the air?

As onerous as it sounds, I would certain dump the 10's water down the drain and very thoroughly wash the gravel. I might look to see if there was any breakdown in the gravel and if there was, toss it (or put it in a bucket outside and save it to put under sinking stepping stones). A couple of times over the years have had it go anerobic in a deep gravel bed. It turned slimey-black, stunk of rotton eggs and gave off that very toxic hydrogen sulfide. The fish got out just in time and nearly everything in the tank went in a garbage bag, which was hastily tied off.)

You have the advantage of having the 20-gallon tank. You can import over half the water and at least the top layer of gravel (placed over any rinsed, new stuff) if you like that color scheme. Airstones can be pitched.

Can the over the back filter be rigorously cleaned? In VA could you take it outside in the shade (sun denatures peroxide) and fill up the box with hydrogen peroxide? Bleach might work if it didn't chew up soft parts and then you hit it with a dechlorinator. The extension tube certainly can be put with one of those oxidizers.

Miskairal, who right now probably has all sorts of hot sunshine in Queensland, has found that just the sun works well as a disinfectant. (For decades that worked just fine on the tin cup next to the well on my grandad's farm.)

When the filter is satisfactorilly clean, can it be run in the 20 without being too disruptive for a week or so? That too will help import the cycle, which you have the tests (or access to the shop) to monitor.

My heart also goes out for the many peoples in dangerous places in the Middle East and several spots in Africa. That or Darfur or regions with so many adults dying or already dead of aids, have replaced other horrible places as references, when things seem rotton here. When I think whatever is going on with the aquariums, house, finances, schools, local politics, family or others is tough, I catch a headline, any day, and wonder what it would be like living in Bagdad.

[ Parent ]



Re: Guppy fry don't volunteer to die... (none / 0) (#3)
by G ma on Thu Dec 14, 2006 at 04:22:29 AM PST

Okay, there are three of them left and they seem to have acclimated nicely to their new home.

The gravel is plain old aquarium gravel purchased at the LFS. Will boiling it after rinsing it carefully be sufficient for cleaning purposes?

While we do have some sunshine here it's not warm enough to give anything a good sun-bleaching effect. Will try the hydrogen peroxide on the filter. Will dump the artificial plants in there too. Can also put thermometer, heater, and hard airline (from airstones) in hydrogen peroxide as well.

What can I use to disinfect nets, siphon equipment etc? Potassium permanganate is impossible to get around here due to its use in "crack" processing.

G ma

[ Parent ]



Boiling the gravel should work. Guppy Girl, (none / 0) (#4)
by unclescott on Thu Dec 14, 2006 at 07:34:58 AM PST

on GL a couple of years ago suggested leaving it in the over for a few hours at about 225. It seems to work and the kitchen doesn't stink and family members don't complain. I just put the circulation fan on for the house's heating system and the heat is spread out. Actually I usually put it in the oven when my lady is elsewhere or already in bed.

Years ago my bride got me a porcelain lined metal soup pot (collander to sift gravel, measuring spoons, etc...) They were useful, if improbable, stocking stuffers. That way fishy dirt doesn't get in her kitchen stuff and soap doesn't get in my fishy stuff. I don't know that many metals come off of cookware to bother fishy stuff anyway, but the porcelain was intended to stop that.

I appreciate the problems with getting and or using potassium permanganate or chlorine this time of the year.

All of the stuff you were going to put in the peroxide should work. If it can get squeezed in there, so should the siphon tubes.

I might try a net, but would watch it. When it changes colors, yank it and rinse. I can see setting this up near a laundry sink. :)

Is that a submersible heater? Great idea, both in having one and trying to cleanse it this way. again watch for a color change on the wiring.

I'm peroxiding a turkey baster now. I know that peroxide is supposed to be an even more powerful oxidizer than bleach, but I don't see it. Probably I didn't make the solution strong enough. Also, it should be kept out of the sun light. :0

[ Parent ]



Re: Boiling the gravel should work. Guppy Girl, (none / 0) (#5)
by G ma on Thu Dec 14, 2006 at 08:15:46 AM PST

Okay, wait a minute.

Is the hydrogen peroxide supposed to be mixed with water before being used?

I intended to use what you would normally find at the drugstore.

G ma

[ Parent ]



I'm just too inexperienced to give you a definite (none / 0) (#6)
by unclescott on Thu Dec 14, 2006 at 07:14:34 PM PST

response.

Before you go further with the circuitous response below, please keep in mind that I'm not sure that you even have to do more than vigorously rinse that tank out.

I mixed a dilute solution of that 3% peroxide. I doubt I made it strong enough to get everything in the jar. But it did clean off areas I at least was able to wipe down with a paper towel. I'm sure the 3% stuff would have fried everything on the baster. (Too cheap to burn up 50 cents worth of peroxide.)

Recycled the last bleach bottle a week ago and don't recall what percent of that is actually Sodium Hypochlorite, the active ingredient. One net source says that is usually in a 4.1 generic brand up to a 5.8% solution. Usually I mix 9-10 gallons of water for every gallon of bleach. That would be about a .4 to a .56% solution in the bleach barrels. (Covered from the sun, it can last a long time.)

As mentioned, the Hydrogen Peroxide in the grocery or drug stores is 3%. Industrial strength Hydrogen Peroxide can be as high as 30%! Do continue to read the labels like you have been doing. :)

If I had dentures, I suppose I could leave them in that drug store stuff too. ;) It has many other uses, among them it is also used in poison control centers to make dogs, who ate something they shouldn't, throw up.

If cut while working in an aquarium, I take an eye dropper and put a drop of peroxide over cuts and, with a little tingling and burning, it burns up the blood and any other organic just sitting there. (Don't try this on little kids.) That is done so if there is something I could catch from the water, hopefully it will not catch on.

Dropped a note to the Inkmaker. He graciously responded very quickly:

"Humm . . .

Oxygen in peroxides doesn't have the toxic properties that Hypochlorite and free Chlorine has in Bleach especially at 1/2 % concentration. The chemical redox activity is not near as strong. Hydrogen Peroxide is surprising in its strength though and the things it does. But, part of the differences between Chlorine and Oxygen is the solubility in water. Oxygen is much more limited than Chlorine. This lets the free Chlorine remain around days and months longer.

It is hard to compare the two.

How much Hydrogen Peroxide?
Honestly, I have no idea.

It is true though that Chlorine is more soluble in water though, and it reacts with it - but not to the extent that it becomes unavailable to do the toxic work.

Chlorine gas is heavier than air and tends to fill voids pushing out air - so keep that in mind. I would just do the cleanup work outside, use Bleach and then wash up with tap water. H2O2 is very expensive and not near a disinfectant that Chlorine and Hypochlorite is.

How much Hydrogen Peroxide?
Honestly, I have no idea  -  and I would blame the difference on the solubility and reactivity of Chlorine vs. Oxygen

I wish I could be more help.

Charles H
--
I recommend Macs to my friends, and Windows machines to those whom I don't mind billing by the hour."

A recent post on the NANFA mailing list, concerned with adding a little peroxide to a tank to get rid of algae, has a guy taking some Elodea (the Anacharis of the stores) which was loaded with hair algae and putting it into a jar of the straight 3% stuff! The algae was killed. However the Elodea was also lifeless and cellophane colored. :0

Charles noted that peroxide isn't going to stay in the water like chlorine compounds will. It is also much more expensive. I still think I will use it on a small scale, but only in a room where no one is and while my lady and anyone else is out of the house.

The three-day weather forecast for Alexandria, VA, which is sort of in your neighborhood, will be highs of 57 to 70F and lows of 39 to 48. It isn't great fun working in that weather, but you could fill the tank with a 10 to 1 water to bleach solution for a couple of days in a shaded spot, then carefully empty it down the laundry sink and dechlorinate that tank.

49-54 highs predicted here. You can bet that I'll wash out some stuff one day in the next couple. I may cheat and run the hose from the laundry sink (scrubbing down the water spout first with baking soda to remove any soap) so that the water can be warmer.

Or you could wipe everything down with the peroxide and a paper towel and let it dry. If you have a package of those inexpensive surgical gloves, that would protect your hands from the peroxide and cold. Then you could do that outside.

We never established that your fry died of a disease. If three of the survivors and your other fish continue to do fine in the other aquarium, that adds some substance to the idea.

In that case I feel like a jerk bringing up all of this clean up stuff. It is good to explore these issues, but I don't know that you need to do all that.

I might wash out the ten and fill it entirely with water from the healthy tank. Then I might take a few sort of expendable fish or fry (having a few of these myself) and add them to that tank. Having none of those, you might try the fry again in there. (Unc ducks already lumpy head.)

If you are dying to clean the tank then militant washing of the tank, boiling of the gravel may be all that is needed. The rub down with the peroxide when it is warm out (by our standards) might be a splendid example of "never leave well enough alone."

Good luck, sorry about all the tap dancing.

unc

So little time, always soooooo much to learn.

[ Parent ]



Dead: 32; Alive: 4 (one questionable) | 6 comments (6 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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