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Females Die after birthing | 10 comments (9 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: Females Die after birthing (none / 0) (#1)
by New Guppy Momma on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 07:29:57 AM PST

Well as no-one has responded yet I'll give it a try.

First off...How many fish are in your 10 gallon tank and what types? If they are all guppies how many males and how many females?

Second...How often do you do partial (25%) water changes?

Thirdly...It is very possible that for a first drop of fry that the 2-4 that you are getting is all the females drop. Putting them into a breeding net or moving them while delivering could cause them to stop their labor.

To start with I suggest a 25% water change every other day for a week or so if you aren't currently doing weekly changes. The ammonia and other by-products of fish waste are probably very highly concentrated in your water.
The funny thing about me responding to this question is this was the very problem that I had in the beginning of my guppy keeping that led me to Guppy Log.
If possible Please answer these few questions and we can help more in finding out what went wrong.

Just a small suggestion but if the females are dying please do not get any more. Let your fry grow up and then let them breed and you will have plenty of fry. I know in my experiance that fry born into your tank system will be hardier and adapt better than their parents who were imported from elsewhere.
How long has your 10 gallon tank been set up? That may have a bearing on why your females are dying. Pregnancy and birth are stressful times for any female (again speaking from experiance. I'm a mother to 2 little girls myself.). And during and afterwards the immune system is not working at it's best and so the pregnant/just delivered female is more susceptible to any negative conditions in her surroundings. If your water quality is not good then a stressed female will succumb sooner than a male (who's only interest is re-pregnating the females).

Welcome to Guppylog. Diaries are the way to go when answers are needed. If this had been a diary it might have been responded too sooner as it would have hit the front page right away. I hope we aren't too late to help.
ALso feel free to browse my diaries and look in the Immediate Help section. There are alot of good tips in there for keeping your fish healthy.

In any case I would give up on the females for now and just concentrate on raising your fry. If there are only males in the 10 gallon I would let the fry get to about 3/4 of an inch long and then move them into the big tank. Or if possible, given the time of year, can Santa bring an extra 10 gallon tank? Then the 2 gallon can be used as a birthing tank. I have a 10 gallon that I'm currently using as a grow out tank for a few dozen fry. They are 3 weeks old and in about another 2 weeks I'll be adding them to my main tank. These little ones were a gift left by my last original female in my quarantine tank (1 gallon). She has since passed away.

Good luck on the little fry and I hope you are still here.
Before all else fails....do a 25% water change ;)



Drat! I'm sorry. I meant to put that after (none / 0) (#3)
by unclescott on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 09:32:58 AM PST

New Guppy Momma's great response. I do apologize NGM!

[ Parent ]


Re: Drat! I'm sorry. I meant to put that after (none / 0) (#4)
by New Guppy Momma on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 09:59:49 AM PST

That's ok Unc.
Are you guys all snowed in yet?
It looks like it should be snowing down here. But nope. It's too warm. 56 currently. I think it may have been in the mid 30's overnight tho.
Before all else fails....do a 25% water change ;)
[ Parent ]


We were very lucky in NE Illinois. West of us (none / 0) (#7)
by unclescott on Tue Dec 05, 2006 at 10:39:26 PM PST

they got 15-17 inches of snow. In the center of the state there was a lot of freezing rain which left a thick layer of ice (before the snow). The ice took down a lot of trees and there were blackouts. Some people from northeast of the Bloomington-Normal area angling sw to southwest of St. Louis were without power for a day or two.

Imagine what that can do to the fish!

Last night the temperature was in the single digits F. As of the weekend the mercury should climb a little above freezing every day. I hope to slap on those cheap surgical gloves, run the hose outside from the laundry sink and get some gravel washed.

all the best!

[ Parent ]



[new] Re: Females Die after birthing (none / 0) (#9)
by unclescott on Wed Dec 06, 2006 at 10:34:57 AM PST

DragonsGuppies, this a response to your latest comments at the top of the page. If we don't respond to the comment after it, the "threads" of discussion are hopelessly tangled.

We need to follow the comment we are referring to.  So please, let's start over here. :)

With that in mind, on Wed Dec 6th, 2006 at 08:13:32 CST, you wrote:

"Ok the tank now has 3 male guppies, 1 pleco, 4 female guppies. The water was treated for Ick and fungus infections. Biological filtration is still good. Aquarium shop said ammonia, nitrites and nitrates are good. No signs of infections or parasites have appeared on any of the fish. There is plenty of aeration. Water is changed at rate of 3 gallons per week.

It was treated weeks ago by use of Jungle treatment tabs from Wal-Mart. The fish were kept in a small bowl and did fine until introduced together and allowed to breed. Then the females simply died in mid-birth.

Last night 1 female became the first to survive the night after giving birth. she has had 3 fry and is still gravid. Her activities still seem normal. With hope she'll be the first survivor. Went to purchase two new guppies but they were sick with ick and died while in quarentine.

Could the shrimp be the cause of death? The female I mentioned above was in a separate 2-gallon tank filled 1/3 with Java moss to give ample places to hide using spring water and some aquarium salt with a  bubble stone."

*

Thank you for responding so quickly. The reason for my concern about the medicating was that some anti-Ick treatments either have an antibiotic or an "anti-infective agent and for disinfection". (My Jungle Ick Guard does anyway.) Those things can quickly kill off the beneficial bacteria in a tank. It can take weeks for them to re-grow and effectively process all of the ammonia and then nitrites being produced.

I'm glad that you checked ammonia levels with your shop after medicating. Has that been done since then? Levels of those fish waste chemicals can change dramatically, even from day to day. If a fish dies (and is biologically broken down behind a box filter or a rock) or if we overfeed (is there a flake on the gravel - there are probably more we don't see) or if we add a couple of female guppies to the three or four we had, the ammonia level, just through the normal metabolisms of the new fish (or left over food, decaying corpses...) can profoundly increase the level of ammonia. In turn the ammonia can ravage gills, get absorbed into the fish's blood and keep the hemoglobin from carrying as much oxygen, and even, by way of the bacterial processes used to break down the ammonia, soak up a lot of the free oxygen in the aquarium water.

That could suffocate even guppies. And it would start with those needing the most oxygen.

This is even more critical in a small 1 or 2-gallon contain, where a tiny bit more waste material can have a gigantic effect on the nitrogen cycle, even where the small tank had cycled over several weeks. And the smaller the aquarium, the wilder the chemical changes can be. That is why some here, despite the cost, have recommended that newbies start with a 20-gallon aquarium. 20s are just a whole lot more stable than a 1/2, 1 or even a 5-gallon container.

Disturbed some Guppyloggers a couple of years ago by mentioning that I was quarantining new 2" fish, one each to a wide-mouthed gallon jar, with no thought to cycling the things. (I'm dishonest with myself too often as it is without lying to myself on these.)

They were set on the glass top of a 15-gallon heated tank. The jars were pretty much the same temperature as the tank. Almost daily a 5-gallon bucket of water would be siphoned from that tank (and replaced of course with seasoned, heated water). The quarantine jars were dumped through a net (or somebody's fingers) and refilled with new water from that biologically active tank. The ride never seemed to stress the fish beyond the immediate event.

I never bothered to suggest that that should be done with females about to drop if kept in small containers (DOH!)

But Stan Shubel's method of placing a female in a gallon drum bowl about a week before she would drop, has been mentioned a couple of times here. Shubel likewise doesn't pretend that there is any cycle going on in the drum bowl. He places it in a warm place, feeds the female well and changes 100% of the water every day or two with water from an established aquarium (very possibly the tank the female came from.)

Kudos to you! That was wise checking the fish for disease at the shop. If they use the same net for the infected aquarium and other aquariums, I would be leery of buying much from that place. If I just had to have a fish from there, quarantine might start with a treatment for velvet. ;)

The fact that your females were dying, and sometimes in small containers and the fry that managed to get dropped and males which might be there are not dying, leads me to wonder if they were being hurt either by an ammonia build up in a small space and (or) a lack of oxygen.

I'm glad that your female made it yesterday. What was different about the situation last night?

I'm not trying to be hypercritical of you, because I've been in a similar situation and, as a grizzled veteran, should have known better!

In the second comment in this following thread:
http://www.guppylog.com/story/2006/11/5/195439/884
I mention how I very successfully killed all of the large female Endler's (P. wingei) in a 10-gallon tank with too much top cover. The males, fry and small females seemed to be doing fine. Presumably they needed less O2. But the nighttime use of a little oxygen by plants (for respiration and growth), the needs of a lot of little fish, the summertime warmth of the water (which holds corresponding less free oxygen) and the lack of oxygen exchange at the water's surface was a lethal combination for relatively large females. During the day, the duckweed produced a prodigious amount of oxygen and there were no problems.

Here's a somewhat similar case. We explored household poisons and UG filters:
http://www.guppylog.com/story/2004/9/17/22557/4394

So for you to consider: When new fish (and/or shrimp or snails or  a pleco which probably bulks more than everything else in the tank or anything else metabolizing food) were introduced to the tank, what happens to ammonia levels? Are very frequent changes made (with water from an established tank) in the small containers? Would a nitrogen cycle have been established in that small container?

Just as a tag on - maybe because this time of the year I must watch where small containers are placed - will the container be warm enough for the female guppy?  Are they out of a draft and on a warm enough surface? That probably is not likely to kill her, but temperatures fluctuating more than a degree or two daily are just another source of stress.

Thanks and all the best!

[ Parent ]



Females Die after birthing | 10 comments (9 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)
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