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Hole in the Stomach?! | 11 comments (11 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: Hole in the Stomach?! (none / 2) (#1)
by miskairal on Mon Jan 30, 2006 at 12:26:18 AM PST

Hi Jacki,

This doesn't sound very good at all and I doubt your fish will make it I'm sorry to say, but then you never know, where there is life there is hope.

I assume you have other fish? Did you read Sassy's question about aeromonas species, called Need clarification? Does that sound anything like what you have, maybe yours is more advanced?

If you are in the US of A or Canada then you might need to use some antibiotics, not ideal but sometimes the only solution. Some countries such as Australia and England don't have antibiotics for fish which makes it a little difficult. Frequent water changes might help your fish be able to cope with this problem too.

It would be great if you could give us a whole lot more info. If you're not sure what, please take a look at the Immediate Help section via one of the links provided on every page. Near the top of the Immediate Help you will find some info on what we need to know to be able to help you.

Cheers
miskairal
--
Repeat after me,
I will read the Immediate Help



Re: Hole in the Stomach?! (none / 0) (#4)
by miskairal on Mon Jan 30, 2006 at 11:14:41 PM PST

I was just sitting here wondering if Jackie is going to reply to this and checked when it was first written - My screen shows Posted on Tue Jan 31st, 2006 at 12:19:15 EAST, about 5 hours ago here, EAST is Eastern Australian Standard Time.

My 1st reply shows the date - Mon Jan 30th, 2006 at 18:26:18 EAST (almost 23 hours ago). Come to guppylog, miskairal can reply to you before you even post anything, maybe before you even know you have a sick fish :))
--
Repeat after me,
I will read the Immediate Help
[ Parent ]



Holy Guppies Batman! (none / 2) (#2)
by unclescott on Mon Jan 30, 2006 at 10:32:33 AM PST

Miskairal has mentioned that water quality issues are often what are behind the illnesses that befall our fish. Sometimes the problem arrives with a new purchase, but they are aggravated by less that perfect water. Her suggestion that you pick up the partial water changes (with seasoned water if at all possible) is your first step. Even today, do a 20% change and then in as many ensuing days as you can, walk up the water changes to 25%, 30%, 35%, 40%, 45%,45, maybe 50% and continue at the 45-50% level. If “seasoned” water is not something you are familiar with, please look for that in Immediate Help.

One of the e-mail lists I subscribe to has had a hot discussion lately on preparing water for the aquarium. It can get pretty involved, especially for those of us who would never be confused with a chemist. ;)

Miskairal is also "right on" in asking for more data. You might refer to the (actually 40 questions) in the Immediate Help article and response in:
20 Questions for new fish owners or owners of sick fish By angelhologram

Among them, what is your general pattern of partial water changes? [Mine is terrible, lest I sound too judgmental. Too much time on-line telling others to change water. ;) ]  Is your water “seasoned” at all? Has your aquarium completely cycled over the last 6-9 weeks?

Having gone to several web sites and checked one of my more reliable fish disease books, I really don’t have a (single) clue what has happened. Burgess, Bailey and Excell’s book notes many of the possibilities, of what is happening to your fish. These might include bacterial infections, perhaps as skin ulcers; the result of Haemorrhages (their spelling) again perhaps caused by bacterial infections; tumors of some sort; viral infections (against which there are no defenses except to try and keep their water and environment as good as you can) or damage caused by ectoparasites. (One could ask if you have seen any Argilus (fish louse), Lernia (anchor worm), Leeches or flukes around the tank – fairly visible critters which may have been hanging on to the side of the fish. Would I know what they look like swimming around the tank? Probably not either!

It could also be a very bad case of Hexamita or Hexamitiasis (similar to the hole-in-the-head disease of cichlids), which is again provoked by dirty water. It could have been an injury while the fish was transported or inflicted by a tankmate. A really nasty thought of mine, it could have been caused by an internal parasite EXITING your guppy. Some come to mind, but that is so speculative, I’d rather not even hazard guesses as to what they might be. Perhaps some sort of alien. ;)

So TLC is probably your best chance in helping your fish to help itself. If you have a quarantine tank where the water will still be warm and at least as clean as where it is at, you might try that. If you are afraid of that malady spreading to your other fish, you may wish to read and consider the Euthanasia article in Immediate Help. I want to hasten to suggest that fish should not be considered “disposable pets!” No animal should!

I would try to do what I could for that fish, but may have the advantage of more space. TLC, mostly in the form of doing every thing you can for improving and maintaining water quality and feeding well without over feeding, are especially what you can do for that animal. Antibiotics can prevent the spread of sores or heal some wounds. However many of them also trash the nitrogen cycle in the aquarium, yet further stressing the fish. :(

I do think you guppy may have a chance if you are able to work with the water and if tankmates leave that him alone. If there is a place (even a plastic plant or clean, soap-less, unraveled plastic pot scrubber) it can shelter in, that may also be beneficial.

There is a sort of human analogy from the American Revolutionary war. A soldier was shot in the stomach. Upon investigation, it was a “clean” wound. Not only did he make it (in an era before antibiotics and even washing hands), but a curious doctor kept shoving things like meat (on a stick or string) into that hole and began the process of investigating how stomachs digest food!

Good luck and all the best, Jacki!

uncle scott

[ Parent ]



Fish TB or Fish Tuberculosis is also called (none / 2) (#8)
by unclescott on Tue Jan 31, 2006 at 01:25:30 PM PST

Mycobacteriosis. The bacterial genus
Mycobacterium is the same one which has the TB which attacks humans.

HOWEVER the species which attack fish are different. They include Mycobacterium marinum (which is widespread in Asian fish farms and is commonly found in imported ornamental fish from those sources). Other species of mycobacterium that commonly infect aquarium fishes include M. fortuitum, and M. chelonei.

Ulcers, open sores and bleeding under the skin are signs of fish TB. The difference between fish TB and most other bacterial related fish diseases is that the fish with the fish TB, 99.99 % of the time, do not get better!

I have taken that from Andrew Tappin's Home of the Rainbowfish. Specifically look at (and please do read) http://members.optushome.com.au/chelmon/Myco.htm

Although it is a bacteria, it is just about impossible to cure and might as well be treated as a virus. Those bacteria are commonly found in aquaria. Usually they have a benign cycle in the mulm in the bottom of tanks. When water quality gets bad, they multiply and can attack the fish. Rainbowfish, for some reason are particularly vulnerable, and if it gets going in a rainbowfish tanks, it is not unknown for the keeper to destroy everything in that tank, bag the fish and plant remains, along with the gravel, and put them in the garbage. (Better a land fill than local streams.) Tanks and equipment are bleached and then rubbed down with rubbing alcohol, which breaks down the waxy membrane, which those bacteria have.

It is possible for those forms of TB to infect aquarists if they have cuts or open sores. Those bacteria do best in the 70s F/21-27 C. That means we might catch it in our hands or arms, because those extremities would be cooler than our torsos.

I have admitted to finding the callous-like growth on that back of one of my hands about 20 years ago. It was slowly growing and I knew I would have to see my doctor about it soon. As "luck" would have it, I had a horrible ear infection and when treated with one of the newer drugs for that, both my ears and hand cleared up! (It - not my case - was written up in the AMA journal in the middle 1970s.) Theoretically if one procrastinated long enough, surgery might be necessary.

Somebody in their 20s or 30s will usually heal up pretty quickly. I would not be so confident now. The immune systems of humans, just like those of fish, are less effective as one gets older. I know of an aquarist in his 70s who contacted fish TB. And he is one of the savvy "grant old-timers of the hobby." It took six months of antibiotic treatment to clear him up! (Cha-ching!)

Since then I have been careful not to put hands with cuts into the water. If I get a nick there, I move fairly quickly to the bathroom sink and irrigate the cut with hydrogen peroxide. I stay out of the water until some healing has taken place. (What some people will do to avoid making water changes!)

I think it is appropriate that Angelhologram should raise the question of fish TB. I'm really glad she knows of it. With her prickly pear cactus spines in her hand, she knows not to put her hand in an aquarium! And so her title "Totally not fish related...need help" is not quite accurate, because open wounds in aquarium (or river or lake) water can have consequences, which we have to deal with.

I would dare say that there are far more diseases we can get from, or share with, warm-blooded pets or even reptiles, One still should be careful around fish. Not paranoid, just careful - sort of like looking both ways when crossing a street. :)

All the best!
unc

[ Parent ]



Re: Fish TB or Fish Tuberculosis is also called (none / 0) (#9)
by miskairal on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 01:02:19 AM PST

Added to Immediate Help. Are there other things at Gl that should be added that I've missed?
--
Repeat after me,
I will read the Immediate Help
[ Parent ]


Re: Fish TB or Fish Tuberculosis is also called (none / 0) (#10)
by JackieJ on Wed Feb 01, 2006 at 04:37:33 AM PST

Thank everyone for their help but sadly my guppy died yesterday.
Jackie

[ Parent ]


Hole in the Stomach?! | 11 comments (11 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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