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Question: How long should you leave a male and female together for breeding??? | 7 comments (7 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
The Short Answer: The two days after she drops (none / 0) (#1)
by unclescott on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 03:36:06 PM PST

will be the only time a female can be impregnated.

A longer answer:     
Bred properly might mean that you matched up your finest male with your best female in terms of size, color and finage. ;) That way your strain doesn't degenerate and may even become more impressive. I'm really pleased that this seems to be a goal of yours.

Guppies, for their part are good at "effective breeding" which, despite the awkward grammar, is to say, they usually get the job done, whether we wanted them to or not - but maybe not when we think. Those males, of yours, were indeed just practicing unless the females just dropped.

In the Pregnancy section of the Immediate Help section (see the upper right hand corner of every Guppylog page) one can find a couple of comments along the line of ...

"... If there is a male you really want to mate her with, leave her with that male ONLY and he will inseminate her in the two days after birth. More of the fry will be his next time around. The third batch, if he is her only consort throughout that period, then almost all fry should be his.

You may not want the earlier fry. Feed her and any tank mates well, (See the references on fry and feeding in the Quick Links) even if you don't want those offspring. Guppies, usually, can be conditioned to leave their fry alone. If they are starving when fry are dropped, they will naturally eat new-borns. Then we are conditioning them to be cannibals."

Females, as if the males needed any more encouragement, secrete a pheromone that alerts males to the possibility of actually fathering fry. Males will be seen really fussing around very full females and I wonder if they are already leaking that pheromone, sort of like the water breaking with humans. That certainly introduces the guppy males to that crucial 48 hours.

Lab studies, perhaps field studies, suggest that females exercise some choice among males. In optimum conditions they will look for the larger, more colorful, most symmetrical (balanced in features and color) male. If he is the best dancer, going through the sigmoid display best (thanks PeterW for finding that), so much the better.

Females, given a choice of males, will select up to three males. There seems to be an increased survival potential in genetic diversity - in the wild. (That is just the opposite of what we are doing when we "line breed" guppies.) Unwelcome males may be chased away, attacked and if, really persistent, may be bitten and even have a portion of his gonopodium severed.

Despite all of that craziness, there are still small males who are "sneaker males." Without fanfare they will try a surprise "jab" at the female. Percentage of success is very remote per try. But we see enough undersized offspring that we really don't want those smaller males in with breeding stock. (That is why serious selective breeders will be so quick to separate out females from the other fry when females show their gravid spot at about one month.)

So when the female(s) of your choice is/are near to dropping fry, place your male(s) of choice with her/them. Those initial fry may be given away if they were not from the pair of choice.

Guppy breeders of fish intended for show keep detailed records of who was bred with whom and which offspring were bred and which fry were saved. This could be on a clipboard, studbook or database.

Hope this helps. Glad to see your interest in raising specific guppies.

When you have an evening, click on the Immediate Help Section of Guppylog and read over those first five or six sections. Some of the info should be very useful. :)

All the best!
uncle scott



along the same lines as the original question.... (none / 0) (#2)
by angelhologram on Thu Aug 04, 2005 at 04:35:02 PM PST

  What if you have had the females since they were fry and they have NEVER been impregnated? I know they are fertile within 2 days after dropping but what about virgin females, when is the best time to breed them? Can they just get pregnant at any time?
*BEFORE you buy fish make sure you understand what "Cycling" a tank means <- quoted from miskaral* ~Trying to make a difference one fish at a time~
[ Parent ]


You keep asking the hardest questions! ;) (none / 0) (#3)
by unclescott on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 08:05:31 PM PST

Actually they're a lot of fun to consider. But I was dismayed to realize that I had never bothered to actually figure out how old a guppy or other female has been when set up to breed. (This offers a bit of an insight into my record keeping too.)

Re-skimmed a lot of Sex, Color and Mate Choice in Guppies by Anne E. Houde. Reporting on research involving wild-type guppies, she suggests that the behaviors of virgin guppies are different than those of the more choosy females who have already given birth to fry. Neither the younger virgins (age 2 months to maybe a couple of months older) nor the full grown virgins (4-6 months old?) were as adverse to the advances of male guppies. In fact the older virgins were the most responsive. Evidentially they can get pregnant throughout that time period.

If the males went into their dances, those sigmoid displays, responsive females would slow down their swimming into kind of a "glide response." That showed their interest without turning towards the male, which might be interpreted as an aggressive response to the smaller male. Mating didn't automatically follow, but that would be the first step in that direction.

That doesn't answer the question, when can an older virgin female still be viable? Again I am embarrassed to not know. I have almost never had to worry about getting selected guppies to reproduce, so the question never came up.

By the way, Houde's book is on sale again in hardback at
http://search.half.ebay.com/guppies_W0QQmZbooks

Stan Shubel, in his book, does allow as how sometimes a female from a batch doesn't work out as a mother and how he would go back to get a sibling and see if she was satisfactory. I'm guessing he could be working with a five-six month old guppy. If I had gone to that Chicagoland guppy show this weekend, I would have asked around.

"Nate" who sometimes graces Guppylog, had noted elsewhere and under another name that there comes a point where unmated female guppies can't be impregnated. That point was raised with miskairal and she discovered that her unmated females of over a year in age, would always remain that way.

Miskairal's discussion is at:
http://www.guppylog.com/?op=displaystory;sid=2005/2/23/23535/0819

I'd have gotten to this sooner, but I took my lady to a nice restaurant to celebrate our anniversary the other evening. Sometime later I noticed a considerable difficulty in breathing. A quick inspection in a mirror revealed a gorgeous red hue to my face and upper torso. The face but especially nose and lips were swollen to an extend that only a momma camel could love. The swelling of the tongue and constriction of the throat suggested that I had less than an hour to swing by a local emergency room or the camels and I would both be out of luck. They did a fine job of pumping the appropriate medications through an IV unit. But it has been a couple of days before I felt comfortable "running moving machinery" and catching up on everything waiting on the computer.

Never had an allergic reaction to food before. (Rats, another warrenty running out.)
So much for fresh shrimp scampi. :(
But I thank God for the chance to be back. :)

All the best!
unc;e

[ Parent ]



Re: You keep asking the hardest questions! ;) (none / 0) (#6)
by miskairal on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 10:58:07 PM PST

Too much fish in your life?  :)
I am so glad to hear you are ok but what a weird thing to happen all of a sudden.

My nephew is marrying a girl next month who is allergic to peanuts, I mean violently allergic. I find it scary to have her in my house even, trying to remember what has been in contact with what and make sure there are no opened packets of peanuts anywhere. Luckily she can smell them a room or two away and can even smell if food has been prepared on a surface or with a utensil that has had peanuts/oil on it.

Happy anniversary unc!
--
Repeat after me,
I will read the Immediate Help
[ Parent ]



Re: You keep asking the hardest questions! ;) (none / 0) (#4)
by angelhologram on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 08:12:57 PM PST

  I'm glad to hear you are doing better now, but I'm very sorry to hear you had to go through that. I hope you and your lady had a wonderful evening up to that point. Happy anniversary and lay off the seafood, your guppies would frown upon it anyway ;-)     (yeah right, like I wouldn't tear into some oysters and crawfish on any given occasion)
  Thank you very much for taking the time to answer this question though.
*BEFORE you buy fish make sure you understand what "Cycling" a tank means <- quoted from miskaral* ~Trying to make a difference one fish at a time~
[ Parent ]


Re: You keep asking the hardest questions! ;) (none / 0) (#5)
by FishingForFishies on Sun Aug 07, 2005 at 08:20:10 PM PST

thankyou both!!! you had asked the question that I was going to ask......what a good turnout!  I didn't have to! great minds think alike i suppose.....
And uncle scott, it's nice to know that you are feeling better.  I'm sure your woman really appreciates the fact that you would deal with such a thing on your anniversery.  I have been in a relationship a little over 9 months....and it is going well.  We hope to get married and move to Canyon Lake, CA.  And he will work full time so I can stay home with my guppies and soon after some kids!
Megan Christiansen
[ Parent ]


Question: How long should you leave a male and female together for breeding??? | 7 comments (7 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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