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Need Advice Please | 4 comments (4 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: Need Advice Please (none / 0) (#1)
by miskairal on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 06:50:15 PM PST

Hi Tonia,

Don't beat yourself up too much. Many of us have been there and done that. I think part of the problem with fish is that you don't know there is so much to learn, I mean you don't know to research b/c as a kid you had a goldfish in a bowl or tank or saw a friend's and there didnt' seem to be anything to it.

I'd continue with the water changes you've been doing. Yes it will delay the cycling but it's better than dead fish. On Monday, get some test kits to test for Ammonia, NitrItes and NitrAtes and start testing frequently until the tank is running as ti should. YOur ammonia will probably be high. I'm not exactly sure of the lethal amount but try to keep it below 0.5 with water changes. You don't really want it to be zero as that means the tank won't cycle. Ammonia is required for the whole nitogen cycle to work. Eventually you will see the NitrItes start to rise and the Ammonia fall. Again, keep the NitrItes down with water changes.

Once the NitrAtes start to rise and the NitrItes fall your tank is almost done cycling. If you know anyone with a healthy, established tank of tropical fish, see if you can borrow some gravel or filter medium that will already contain the good bacteria you want in your tank. This may speed up the whoel cycling process depending on how much material you can obtain. Even plastic plants and ornaments can help.

If you can keep the Ammonia and NitrItes down you shouldn't lose any fish. BTW NitrAtes are still harmful to fish although much larger amounts can be tolerated. That is why the necessity to continue with water changes even after your tank is established. Basically you are changing the lethal ammonia and nitrites into less harmful nitrates and then removing the nitrates from the water via water changes.

If you live n an area with town water ie. water that is treated with Chorine or chloramine, you MUST treat the water to remove those chemicals. I believe chlorine will dissipate after standing for at least 24 hours (the more the better) but chloramine will not. I dont' have access to a town water supply so am not really up on all that side of things.

Aquarium salt can be very helpful for combatting disease although plants do not like it. It works by annoying (can't think of the right word at the moment) the skin of the fish therefore causing the fish to produce a more abundant slime coat to protect itself. This in turn protects it from external diseases such as white spot. Make sure you only add salt to your replacement water and not the amount for the whole tank or to top up water used for evaporation loss.

Is there any chance the you can return a few of the fish to the place of purchase (seing as how they led you astray) for the time being?

I'm not sure what Prime is or how it works so will leae that alone.

Good Luck
miskairal
--
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Wow! Lots of thoughts and (none / 0) (#2)
by unclescott on Sun Jul 10, 2005 at 09:16:03 PM PST

a distressing situation. Sometimes we don't really dig in on something like this until the going gets crazy. (Sometimes we have done that even as parents.)  I'm sorry you are having to endure this though Tonia. Your questions though are most appropriate. It is good that you are raising them.

Miskairal is really right about the surprises we encounter these days in setting up aquaria. Cycling a tank has always been important, but only talked about in the last couple of decades. It did seem so much easier "back when."

First, a couple of questions for you. Do you want a conventional community tank? Or would you want a slightly different livebearer community tank where a few especially hardy and clever fry survive to grow up?

Those above, kind of go with, "What is your pet store's return policy? Will they take fish back, oh, in trade for ammonia, nitrate and nitrite testing kits? " ;)

If you wanted a straight community tank, keep your two Corys and maybe four other fish for now. Be aware that sometimes, even with freshwater aquariums, it is best to add the least assertive fishes first and more aggressive (or larger) ones later.

If you want fry, keep the Corys or the spotted pleco and maybe four of the livebearers. Along with the testing kit, get some floating hornwort and a few Valisnaria plants to plant along the sides and back of the tank.

I don't know what to say about that "spotted plecostomus". There are over 1,000 of the suckermouth catfishes and at least scores which have spots. Some stay small, a couple (the clown pleco of the genus Peckoltia) stay small but also get territorial and it is wise to have only one in a 30. Some are food items in the Amazon basin. They will usually thrive on spirulina wafers, veggie tabs and/or several green veggies (sliced zucchini, sliced cucumber, peas, maybe Romaine lettuce, but not most lettuce.)

When time permits later on, visit http://www.planetcatfish.com/core/index.php or Google spotted pleco.

Your concern about the water changes are most appropriate. The three 20% ones a week are enough, though we don't know for sure what the ammonia is doing with that population. You do need to let some in ammonia stay in there to get the cycle going.

Also, if you get a chance to season your changing water for a few days, it will lose a lot of its chlorine (unless you have chloramines = chlorine + ammonia) and a little free nitrogen. And it will have a chance to absorb some free oxygen. There are different water conditioners appropriate for different waters. See http://www.guppylog.com/story/2003/10/29/1074/5757

We just discussed the fishless cycling here, where one buys and adds a certain amount of ammonia and uses the test kits to the monitor the ammonia spike, the decline of the ammonia and a nitrite spike and then the settling down of those first two figures and the rise of the nitrates – which is a good time for a water change.

See http://www.guppylog.com/story/2004/9/22/20843/5101 for a good discussion of the nitrogen cycle.
http://faq.thekrib.com/begin-cycling.html
http://www.guppylog.com/?op=displaystory;sid=2005/6/30/161112/322 gives some URLs of interest.
http://badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article14.html described fish-less cycling, maybe for lurkers.
http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/flc-data.htm a sample case.

It is a good idea to treat new water but not the tank with Prime. I believe, as with Amquel and a bunch of other water conditioners designed to deal with ammonia, it bonds it chemically and the ammonia is slowly released into the system, so there is not an ammonia surge, But as you have noted, that also impacts and can set back the cycling.

Related to that, do you know if your water supply has chlorine or chlorine + ammonia = chloramine? Small towns are (at the moment) more likely to have just chlorine, but major metropolitan areas (and the small towns they supply) are more likely to have both. One usually can call one's village water department. They or someone in the office - should be able to answer that straight off. They should also have a report to the EPA, which, when you have time, you might arrange to pick up. Stuff one couldn't care less about, suddenly takes on meaning when we either get fish or a baby in the family. ;)

That Bio-Spira, to jump start the cycle, is a very interesting idea. (I cheat and take a lot of water, gravel, plants and even filters from established tanks. If you were around the corner in Chicago's Southern Suburbs, I'd be lugging water, "used" gravel, Najas and maybe a filter over - not for the first time.) Peter suggests, in that 3rd URL above, that the stuff needs to be refrigerated. I have no experience with it. Check with the pet supply manager.

If the shop will not take some of the fish back -  or if you don't want to take any back - hang in there until that Bio-Spira comes in. Feed sparingly and the fish will produce less waste. It is hard in this weather, but if you can keep the tank at 75-76, rather than higher, their metabolism rates (and aggression and maybe courting behavior) will moderate a little.

It may be possible to cycle that 30-gallon tank with that crowd in there. Be moderate in feeding. Watch for the Bio-Spira. Your observations on the various fish ring pretty true. If the test kits are affordable (with trade ins or as a regular purchase) I think that they would actually serve to relieve you of a lot of uncertainly and anxiety.

Your pH sounds fine. Municipal water supplies are supposed to be more or less in that range and that is great for livebearers. PH was one of the first things aquarists and field workers began testing for many years ago. While disasters can accompany really high or low pH reading, there are a whole lot of other tests and readings which I believe are of greater important to you now and later in the hobby. It has been 25 years since I bothered to test for pH. Still have the kit which is probably useless anymore.

Your evaluation of your fish rings pretty true. It would be nice if "they" would at least take back the lonely  glass catfish, the female molly and the over-sexed male neon sword. ;)   Bettas may or may not be a good match for that crowd.

The bit of salt Miskairal is suggesting, maybe a tablespoon (not of table salt though) for your 30-gallon tank, is an old pet shop trick. It enables their fish to endure more nitrates (and maybe whatever) in over-crowded tanks, at least for a time. Good idea! (And thank you M. for untangling the sequence - again.)

That tank, when cycled, is a great match for a few swordtails though. There will be some bumps in the road, but it sounds like you are making some considerable strides in catching up with what you need to know and do. Hopefully something here will be of additional use. Please keep us posted. :)

Good luck and all the best!
uncle scott

[ Parent ]



Re: Wow! Lots of thoughts and (none / 0) (#3)
by TMS on Mon Jul 11, 2005 at 07:02:41 AM PST

Thank you very much for your suggestions and links (that I will be checking into today).  I ordered bio-spira and they ship second day with cold packs. So I should have it tomorrow or Wed. at the latest. My LPS looked at me like I was crazy when I mentioned it LOL and tried to sell me other products instead (but I didn't go for it)   My pet store will buy any tank raised fancy guppies but not the rest of my live bearers.  I have a few plants now and I am just going to let nature take it's course and try to save the fancies for trade of fish or goods at the pet store.  I do have a couple fish that have been very aggressive since yesterday and my pet store said they cannot or will not which every you prefer LOL take back any of my fish unless they are beating up on others in the tank.  So I will be calling this morning and asking them to take back the two that are aggressive and I will get a test kit today also.  And it is amazing that the hardiest fishes are the ones I wish I would not have went with now LOL. OH well I won't put them down just because I don't care for them the most.  It will all work out in the end I am sure.  Maybe it will just be an excuse to get another tank for raising my fancies LOL (think my hubby might kill me hehehe).  Any way thank  you to both of you that responded to my post.  Great site here and very helpful.

Toodles

Tonia

[ Parent ]



Re: Wow! Lots of thoughts and (none / 0) (#4)
by elkisland on Tue Jul 12, 2005 at 12:24:04 PM PST

Have you taken the male betta out? It won't help a lot, but even a little bit less stress on the system won't hurt. Bettas can manage in a bowl or jar for a few weeks if necessary. Once the tank cycle is complete, you can consider putting him back in the tank or getting him his own little home. (Bigger than 1 gallon please.)
~~~Elkisland

[ Parent ]


Need Advice Please | 4 comments (4 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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