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Dead from nothing I can see | 9 comments (9 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: I wouldn't add more salt. If the fuzz is just (none / 0) (#6)
by angelhologram on Fri May 20, 2005 at 09:08:18 PM PST

  OK Scott, let me pick your brain some more. Anyone else PLEASE feel free to chime in!
  I now definately see white salt like spots on one of the males, however he also has prtruding scales on his back between his head and dorsal fin. These could be damaged scales from the other males or could be a sign that the "ich" is actually "guppy disease". Now I know that the treatment is basically the same for each. So here's my problem, if I treat with Malachite Green it will damge my very fragile and new nitrogen cycle, but if I treat with copper it will kill my apple snails. All three of my tanks are affected, so I will be treating all of them. I have a little bowl with a plant growing in it (the kind you buy with a Betta in it) that I could put my snails in for a while, but it has no airation/filtration. How long do I have to leave the copper in there? How long will it take to cycle out using a new carbon filter and water changes? Please help quickly, the pregnant female is not looking good at all.
*BEFORE you buy fish make sure you understand what "Cycling" a tank means <- quoted from miskaral* ~Trying to make a difference one fish at a time~
[ Parent ]


What a tough set of choices! I appreciate (none / 0) (#7)
by unclescott on Fri May 20, 2005 at 11:17:19 PM PST

your preceptiveness in that the possible treatment which can be applied to either Ick or Tetrahymena or guppy disease. I would use the Malachite Green. Miskairal used that in conjunction with something else fairly effectively if i recall. Malachite green in the powdered for you can be dangerous. ("Don't inhale" -Wm. Clinton.) I'm assuming that this is in liquid form.

Copper can easily be over and maybe under dosed. Overdosing can cause muscle damage or kill the fish. Just what we are trying to avoid with Tetrahymena.) It is most dangerous at a lower pH. Naturally at the safer pH levels guppies are usually kept at, it isn't as effective. As you know, it is also very toxic to snails (and a lot of invertebrates). I fear that Betta bowl would be too small for a keeping the snail in very long.  Stephanie Dodson suggested 2.5 gallons per apple snail athttp://www.petfish.net/Apple_Snail.htm

I don't know what the tolerance for Malachite green is for your apple snails. Nor do I know if they can carry Ick, though Ick is an ectoparasite which might be carried by them.

You probably have already discovered
http://www.applesnail.net/
I wonder if that site or the people associated with it could answer the question as to whether the snails should be treated too.

Where ever you decide to put the snails, don't delay with the treatment of the guppies. Staring as quickly is you can, is important. BB&E do mention protruding scales as a sign of the guppy disease. (Rats! I was hoping, for your sake, it was Ick.) That same team suggests an immediate treatment of early cases with a mild anti-protosoan application and euthenasia for serious cases.

Also don't know if the snails can convey the guppy disease either. Wish this didn't get so convoluted, so easily. :)

Good luck and all the best!
unc;e

[ Parent ]



You will have to move the snails though! (none / 0) (#8)
by unclescott on Fri May 20, 2005 at 11:22:34 PM PST

A quick spin through the http://www.applesnail.net/ FAQs indicates that the snails are very vulnerable to malachite green too. I go with isolating them for a couple of weeks if possible. Guessing that they would be ok to put with the guppies then.

All the best again!
unc

[ Parent ]



Re: You will have to move the snails though! (none / 0) (#9)
by angelhologram on Sat May 21, 2005 at 09:35:20 AM PST

  Ok, picked up some MG and started treatment after I moved the snails. I guess I'll just have to do daily water changes to the smaller bowl when I change water in the 3 10gals. One last question. Now that I've got MG in my tanks (I'm just calling all three of them hosipital tanks now) what in the world do I do when the fry come? I know it can be harmful to fry. Put them in with the snails???
*BEFORE you buy fish make sure you understand what "Cycling" a tank means <- quoted from miskaral* ~Trying to make a difference one fish at a time~
[ Parent ]


Angelhologram, lethargy and (none / 0) (#10)
by unclescott on Wed Nov 09, 2005 at 04:22:41 PM PST

hanging at the surface can mean that the fish aren't breathing well. This could be hypoxia or oxygen starvation. Hypoxia also can be the result of poisoning - where the fish are unable to get enough oxygen because of the high level of CO2 (carbon dioxide poisoning) and any of a whole bunch of other factors in the water.

What color are the fish's gills? We talked a bit about this in:
 http://www.guppylog.com/story/2005/2/24/163511/736

It is even possible that something in the house is impacting the tank. For a couple of suggestions see

http://www.guppylog.com/story/2003/11/15/55646/798

Do look to see what your three-year old put in. Probably nothing is there. However it is sometimes amazing that any of us or our pets survived that age when we (and our children) suddenly became so mobile and curious and klutzy. I learned fast not to take a 2.5 year old to the hardware store with all of those neat little bins of pipe fittings. ;)

By the way, Melafix in a tank too long, can cause a pH plunge. If it has been there well over a week, start changing it out.

The same applies for salt. A little can be a tonic - especially if there are visible spots or growth on the skin. Too much can dramatically raise the water's TDS (total dissolved solids) and that can lead to trouble. Too much of a sudden shift between waters of different TDS can lead to osmotic shock.

See http://www.guppylog.com/story/2004/1/31/5655/54195

If the fish had flukes, they would probably be scraping themselves on the gravel, rocks or what ever. Did you see any of that?

If you are really worried about them, treat with an anthelmintic or one of the commercial Parasite Guards or de-wormers. That also takes care of several possible (and nasty) internal worms too. I'm almost to the point where any new fish from commercial channels will get that treatment while in quarantine.

By the way, it may be best to leave all the tank paraphernalia in while medicating for parasites (both crustaceans and worms). That way anything adhering to the equipment by surface tension stays   and gets treated.

By the way, kudos to you and you pet shop for using an apple snail to cycle the tank. I think that's neat! If you are medicating for worms, you really need to also include the fry and yes, the snail, even though it could threaten the snail. Remove the snail after 4 days, it should still be ok.

I'm really impressed with what you are considering, even if it is not possible (logistically speaking) to diagnose the disease. Also impressive, is what you seemed to have gleaned from this site, other sites and people and books elsewhere. You are checking for things a lot of aquarists would not know to check for. You may be correct, that lab work (s0metimes within 30 minutes of death unfortunately) may need to be done to actually determine the cause(s) of death. You were not long-winded, just doing a great job of doing your best to describe what has been happening.

Much of this noise from me, admittedly, is just "throwing things against the wall to see what sticks." Sort of like with auto and computer repair, sometimes that's what one must do. :(

You mention treating with your customary water conditioner. Does that treat both for chlorine and ammonia? The reason I ask is that water departments has been increasingly putting both of those in. Indeed they have been asked to do that. If you are treating with just a dechlorinator and they are shipping chloramine (chlorine which naturally bonds to ammonia), you are releasing the chlorine, but also creating an ammonia burst.

Another problem with tap water is where the tap water was very cold. As it warms up rapidly, bubbles can form on the side of the tank - oh yes  - and in the fish's blood vessels. That is a gas embolism and roughly the same as when a diver gets the bends. That is also called gas bubble disease.

Recently visited a cichlid nut (with a zillion gallons of water) and his own well. He is constantly running new water into his tanks with a very fine and powerful nozzle. When asked why, he noted that if he didn't do that he got the bubbles all over the tank. The bubbles were "free nitrogen" and could replace oxygen (or prevent the absorption of oxygen)  in the fish. He said that he first noticed that when he just ran the water into a tank. The fish got a little loopy, just lazily cruising around, sometimes going near the surface. Then they slowed down and died after a day or three. When that happened he was quick to call around and get that nozzle.

That lethargy can also be a sign of nitrite poisoning. The scenario can unfortunately be much the same as with the above paragraph. (And the cure is to do more partial water changes with safe, seasoned water.)

All kinds of stress/ shock - temperature shock, osmotic shock, chemical shock , pH shock and on and on - can be caused by suddenly moving fish from one type of water to another which is dramatically different. That probably is not what happened to your fish. But just to check, did your shop have you add a little tank water to your bag (or jar) with the fish in them? Did they have you then pour off some of that water, 20-30 minutes later, and add some more tank water. After a third time of decanting/ pouring off water and adding
tank water, did they have you throwing all that water out and (gently) dropping your fish into their new home?

If your library has the
A-Z of Tropical Fish Diseases and Health Problems
By Peter Burgess, Mary Bailey and Adrian Excell
(Howell Book House, NY, 1998 or 1999).

Or

The Tropical Fishlopeadia: A Complete Guide To Fish Care
Also by Bailey and Burgess
Also by Howell Book House, NY but C. 2000

they go into this in even greater detail.

If your library doesn't have those books, check their holdings computer to see if either are in a nearby town or if you can get them through inter-library loan. (Your tax dollars at work.)

It may be that you will never know what had hit your fish. It may have been something before they got to your home and you are just now seeing the results. With lots of TLC, your survivors may do just fine.

Hopefully, other than take a little of your time, the above has done no harm and may be a little helpful. Please give a quick mental check though of the scenarios suggested. Hopefully they will all be discarded. :)

Good luck and all the best!
uncle scott


[ Parent ]



Dead from nothing I can see | 9 comments (9 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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