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Water Softner (rainsoft) with Reverse Osmoesis | 28 comments (28 topical, 0 hidden)
Re: Water Softner (rainsoft) with Reverse Osmoesis (none / 0) (#4)
by miskairal on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 02:07:12 PM PST

Hi there,

I wish I'd known to research before I inherited my guppies ;)

I think you will need to get some test kits before you can do anything. My guess is you will need to use a combination of the soft water and the hard, straight well water to get a hrdness of 10-20 and a pH of 7.0-7.5.

Guppies can tolerate higher and lower pH but disease factors seem to play a bigger part then. Those test kits might cost you a bit to start with but they last forever once you get your tank fairly stable and know your water.

I have to use a combination of rain water (soft)and creek water (hard) to get the water right for the fish. The harder the water the less pH fluctuations you will get. I'm not sure how a water softener softens the water but I would guess it removes some of the minerals etc. that your fish might require to maintain their health.

Does your well water get pumped to a holding tank? Where in the line is you water softener - is it possible to put another tap in that bypasses the softener if needed.

I really have trouble getting my brain around all the water harness stuff but I'm sure unc;e will come along and give you more info
--
Repeat after me,
I will read the Immediate Help
[ Parent ]



Re: Water Softner (rainsoft) with Reverse Osmoesis (none / 0) (#6)
by wwtinksk9 on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 02:27:58 PM PST

thanks so much for the replies! I see I have some work ahead of me ...guess no pain no gain right? I'm going to read over these a few times to soak in the information and check out the links ....

we did have the water tested by the public health enviromental laboratory in 2003 but they only tested for 3 things it appears...I only remembered this after reading uncle scotts post

total coliform   absent
total e coli     absent
Nitrate-Nitrate as N  1.36mg/L
this was before the water softener and haven't had it checked since......guess I'll get on that

I'm not sure about any bipassing the water softener other then to get it directly from the well and I haven't a clue if it has a holding tank only know that its a deep water well. I guess I might be playing with water for a couple of months before I even get the fish LOL thats ok I rather figure it out now then later and live with the guilt of killing of the fish.

You guys have been so much help at least I think I understand what I need to do and where to start(wait til I read the replies over again I might feel differently lol)........thank you so much!

[ Parent ]



Re: Water Softner (rainsoft) with Reverse Osmoesis (none / 0) (#9)
by miskairal on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 01:16:39 AM PST

The absence of coliforms and e coli is a good thing at least :)

I don't know if you can test for them at home though. I need to test my own water for those nasties.

Keeping guppies is way harder than I thought when I started.

Good Luck
miskairal
--
Repeat after me,
I will read the Immediate Help
[ Parent ]



There are tons of useful books out there. (none / 0) (#8)
by unclescott on Tue Mar 01, 2005 at 03:32:47 PM PST

One which I have become increasingly grateful for is Terry Fairfield's A Commonsense Guide to Fish Health published by Barrons Educational Series, Inc. It runs for 11 to 14 dollars (US). He presents a ton of good stuff before ever getting to the diseases in the 2nd half of the book. Prevention through a healthy environment and diet   is an important theme. It is more readable than some such works.

You might also be able to interlibrary loan it through your public library. There are a number of other titles on guppies and aquarium care, beginning with the Baensch Aquarium Atlas, vol 1 and Stan Shubel's Proper Care of Guppies.

Not right next door to the farm, but if you get a chance to sit down at the library holdings computer, do searches for guppies, fish health aquariums, fish foods, tropical fish, livebearers and the like. I don't know if they charge rural patrons any mailing or loan fees, but I would guess if they did, the costs are still modest.

We have links scattered around GL. You could probably Google more than you can read using those search terms above.

All the best!
u.s.

[ Parent ]



This is great information... (none / 0) (#10)
by nancylb999 on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 06:12:08 AM PST

I was hoping this topic would get posted quickly.

I have extremely hard water from my taps... it tested at a whopping 360, and a PH of over 8.

The LFS told me they keep their tanks at about 150-170 so I should match that.

So I picked up some Tanksoft (Mardel) and it seems to do the job, it has also dropped the PH to about 7.2.

However, I think the RO water is the cheaper solution, this Tanksoft stuff is about 8 bucks for a tiny little bottle, with my tap water it will be gone before spring.

Is there any suggested treatment for RO water? any detoxifiers, etc, that should be added before it's used? Or just let it settle indoors for a couple days?

Thanks folks!

[ Parent ]



Re: This is great information... (none / 0) (#16)
by guppygirl on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 08:56:30 AM PST

Hi wwwtinksK9,

I finally found something that I had been looking for to lower the hardness of water for years.

I had read about it, yet could never find one for some reason.

It's called a "Water Softener Pillow" by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, and it is a resin like substance inclosed in a pillow-like covering.

You place it in your filter, where the water will flow through it and let it work for 48 hours.

Then, this is the cool part, you take it out and
RECHARGE it in a solution of aquarium salt and water for two hours.
Then it is supposed to be fully charged for another 48 hour stint.

The Pillow was $4.49 and then the salt was a few bucks.

I only found it the other day, so I'll let you know how it works.

This may be a less expensive option for Nancy as well.

The water hardness in one of my tanks gets pretty high over the winter months, due to the evaporation rate of the water.  

The tank sits behind my husband's recliner, and when the water level gets down to where the filter starts to make noise, (it interferes with his TV viewing enjoyment)he, GULP, tops it off with tap water.

I don't quite understand how this noise can bother him when he needs the volume on the TV at 20+ to hear it.

Luckily, the biofilter and fish can, and do, survive this treatment.  

Says something about me too, don't cha think? ;o)

Hope this helps, and I'll keep you posted.

gg
:o)

[ Parent ]



Re: This is great information... (none / 0) (#25)
by nancylb999 on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 06:25:54 PM PST

Hi GG,

I think I found my solution...

I took some "snow water" and tested it. After it melted, of course, LOL. It's GH is a profound Zero.

And I tasted it, being the nutcase I am, I wanted to make sure there were no detectable impurities, anyway. Tasted like bottled water, to me.

So it looks like treated tap water and snow water is going to win...

Until another month or so, when we finally start getting unfrozen precipitation again.

:)

-Nancy.

[ Parent ]



Re: This is great information... (none / 0) (#26)
by guppygirl on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 03:37:18 PM PST

Hey Nancy,

Was thinking about testing the snow here for the same reason!!!  (When Da Unc asked me about collecting rainwater, I thought, "Sure, in about 4 more months or so".)

I live pretty close to a city that has been redflagged for air quality from time to time, so I don't know if that will be an option.

I'll give it a shot though since you won't think I'm a crackpot at least.

gg
:o)


[ Parent ]



Hey GG! That can be very useful. However... (none / 0) (#18)
by unclescott on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 09:26:16 AM PST

(don't you hate those howevers?) I wonder if those pillows are like the basement water softener where two parts sodium are exchanged for one part calcium or one part magnesium? If so, you would actually be increasing your tank's TDS! If they are recharged with salt in a bucket, isn't that almost like recharging a basement water softener?

I think those pillows may be useful with rainforest fish which may be a little calcium sensitive. Maybe they can be tricked into spawning.

You are correct in being concerned with just topping off the tank with tap water.

Is your rain clean enough that after 20-30 minutes of rain (to clear the air and roof of dust, etc.) that you could put a fish bucket under a rainspout? Sometimes, if the water is a little odd smelling, a filter with activated carbon can be put in it. At a certain point the cost of the activated carbon makes it easier to buy demineralized water at the store. That is still way too expensive to do much.

A few years ago, when my Dad was about 87, his water softener (or maybe water heater, but this is a favorite story) gave out. The guys who came to replace it asked him if he wanted the one with the 20 year warranty or the 30 year warranty. He looked at them and at his reflection in a window pane. Then he just began chuckling. ;)

All the best!
unc;e

[ Parent ]



Interesting! Is that tanksoft a resin which (none / 0) (#11)
by unclescott on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 07:08:09 AM PST

absorbs (or like carbon adsorbs) the minerals? It sounds like it both absorbs hardness minerals and also the pH buffers.

The "poor man's RO unit" involved shoving some clean peat moss into a cannister filter and running a 5 gallon bucket of water through it. That stuff is then gradually added to a tank of Rams, rainforet tetras, Apistogramma, Discus or rainforest killies. The peat also adds some veggie material (so TDS may b not drop all that much), acidifies the water and takes about half the mineral out. I suggested that to a buddy whose rams were spawning within days. :)

Don't try that on the guppies though. They would be better served by water a little on the alkaline side.

RO units (see other GL discussions) do have some expenses associated with them. The water should have 99+ % of most things in it taken out. Like the even more pure distilled water, it holds virtually no oxygen. If a fish didn't blow up its gills (after jumping into a barrel of the stuff, as one of my fish did), it would suffocate. :(

My head still swims when I think of how two people keeping discus moved and had an R.O. unit set up in their new home. They put their cichlids in straight R.O. water and killed thousands of dollars worth of neat fish. The only survivors were the fish they were able to net and dump back into the (dirty, but harder) traveling water.

Marine aquarists and aquatic gardeners aound here will use the RO water to remake their tank water using a marine salt mix or something like Seachem's Equilibrium (for freshwater tanks). That way they avoid the abundant phosphates in our water supplies and the subsequent algae explosions.

If your tap water is just mineral rich, you would be well advised to mix it 50-50 or even 40% tap - 60% RO for your guppies. Just as you gradually added water to the bag (or jar) of fish from the shop, decanted and added more water... you might do that with other fishes if taking them into water cut by RO water.

Fish can be moved more quickly into harder water or water with a higher pH. Going softer or lower in pH means one must take more care. Osmotic shock  and gill damage is possible.

RO is also used for baby formula (so the chloramines and ammonia in municipal water don't harm infants). I might add it makes great coffee and orange juice. There isn't enough calcium and other minerals in it to recommend RO water for drinking, though I supposed some tap water could be mixed with it. (That way one can perspire without getting kidney stones. ;) Quoth the non-physician.)

So, except for Scott Lockwood's very important use of topping off to replace evaporation with R.O. water, don't use it "straight up" with fishes.

All the best!
uncle scott
lapsed historian

[ Parent ]



Re: Interesting! Is that tanksoft a resin which (none / 0) (#17)
by guppygirl on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 09:02:42 AM PST

Hey Unc,

Is what you're advising against what I just posted about?

gg
:o)

[ Parent ]



Not necessarily GG. But see above. Several of (none / 0) (#20)
by unclescott on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 09:33:39 AM PST

us seem to be flailing away on our keyboards at the same time. (And I have laundry to do!)

If Charles is still around. I would really value his much more informed insights into these things.

All the best!
unc;e

[ Parent ]



Tanksoft... (none / 0) (#12)
by nancylb999 on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 07:46:34 AM PST

I looked it up on the Mardel website and sure didn't find much info on it... www.mardel-labs.com/mardel/f_awcon.html TankSoft: Liquid solution to lower total hardness in aquarium water. Also stabilizes pH by suffering as it softens. Boy, I am a dummy, I read this too fast and thought by RO you folks were talk about "Run-off" water, meaning rainwater. I'll have to think of something, though, because buying these little jugs of Tanksoft is just not going to be economical... -Nancy.

[ Parent ]


Run off when talking about an R.O. unit is (none / 0) (#19)
by unclescott on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 09:30:16 AM PST

the water which does not go through the membrane. That stuff through the membrane is 99% demineralized. The run off is the 3 or 4 gallons of water (per gallon of R.O. water) which cleans off the rejected minerals and takes them with, usually down the laundry room sink. If the original water was 150 PPM hardness and 7.8 pH, the run-off is perhaps (I'm making this up, but it is sorta close) 170 PPM and 8.0 pH.

A friend who had a wholesale house would pipe his RO run off through his mbuna (Lake Malawi cichlid) tanks. They loved the water changes and the slightly harder water was no problem. That pleasantly surprised me because fish from the African Rift Lakes (or African Great Lakes if you want to count Lake Victoria) are hardwater fish, but insensitive to sudden chemical changes.

Another person I know uses the run-off for his livebearer grow out tanks, where the overflow went into pipes and out of the fishroom. I always wanted to run the RO run off to the garden. The other half of the administration, opposed to a small hole in the screens (even if it had a small 1/4" hose siliconed into that hole), vetoed that incredibly resourceful idea. ;)

Not just trying to be a smart aleck, I don't know what I'd do with wwtinksk9's run off water. Make cement? ;)

ATB!
u.s.

[ Parent ]



Re: Run off when talking about an R.O. unit is (none / 0) (#21)
by wwtinksk9 on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 10:57:42 AM PST

Ok I read this over and reread again LOL

going to try the half and half (half of the well water from h E double hockey stick and half water from faucet which is the soft water and none of the R.O .)

do I have this right or do I need to go back and read again LOL

and guppygirl please let me know how that works....

going to goto petco saturday and get a tester ...
maybe half&half will be to much maybe 3 parts well water to 1 part soft? LOL

I get to play scientist muhahahaha

by the way I think this subject would go nice in the quick links......seriously its subject not talked about on the net and not knowing the right key words dummies like me need alittle direction?LOL

[ Parent ]



Re: Water Pillow Results. (none / 0) (#27)
by guppygirl on Fri Mar 04, 2005 at 03:52:53 PM PST

Hi gang,

Thought I'd share with you my results from the tests after running the Pillow for 48hrs.

Well it dropped the GH by about 6 degrees, or roughly 100 ppm.  The KH remained between 3 and 4 degrees. I forgot to check that before adding the pillow, but didn't think this would become an experiment, DOH!  

I believe that my KH is about that anyway, so it didn't seem as if it had changed that variable much.

It performed actually BETTER than what was stated on the package, as far as mineral removal in ppm.

I'm recharging it now, and then I will run another set of tests on GH, KH, and pH before and after.

My pH reading came out at 7.4 after using it which is high for that tank for it usually never budges from 7.0. However, if you were to ask me if I tested the pH beforehand? My answer would have to be No. (Another DOH!!)

Also, whenever I've filtered water with a Brita type filter, the pH always drops, not rises.

So I'm just a bit curious and am asking myself, "What's in this guys?"

I might post this information as a new post when I run the second set of tests, as this thread is getting a little long.

Hope this was some help to someone.
I found it interesting.

gg
:o)

[ Parent ]



Re: go nice in the quick links (none / 0) (#24)
by miskairal on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 01:59:44 PM PST

Done!
It's in the QuickLinks under the New tank/cycling/setting up/water changing section.

A while back I posted a question I think titled Rainwater. If you type in rain or creek you might get some hits on past discussions about water quality. This one is way more comprehensive in answers though.

Cheers
miskairal
--
Repeat after me,
I will read the Immediate Help
[ Parent ]



Find out the hardness of your tap water. If it (none / 0) (#22)
by unclescott on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 11:23:18 AM PST

is less mineral laden than your well water and affordable, forget the well water when it comes to aquariums. If your tap water is from a local well too, it may still have to be cut with demineralized water. Ask you water supplier for a water analysis.

While chemistry in terms of the mineral content is not discussed as much as it should be on aquatic Net sites as a whole, there are mailing lists and forums where it is a constant preoccupation. It takes a little digging and a vocabulary more familiar with nitrogen cycle, DH, KH, RO, and all that to find what your need.

A lot of time, in a number of endeavors, the hardest thing is not finding answers, it is just in knowing what questions to ask. Then of course, there are those several questions which will arise from that one answer. ;)

All the best!
unc;e

[ Parent ]



Re: Find out the hardness of your tap water. If it (none / 0) (#23)
by wwtinksk9 on Wed Mar 02, 2005 at 11:42:29 AM PST

My tap water is my water from the water softener and the water softener gets its water from the well .......... so basically all my water is from the well (no city water here) and is filtered thru the water softener to my faucets (tap) and again thru the reverse osmoesis to another smaller tap for drinking only. (which by the way my well water tasted yummy and now I have a hard time drinking it from the R.O (reverse osmoesis) that is the only plus to the well water it is the best tasting around but considering what it does to ones tub makes ya wonder what it does to your insides lol)

now I understand why I was getting confused lol when you say tap you are thinking its from somewhere else.

[ Parent ]



Re: Find out the hardness of your tap water. If it (none / 0) (#28)
by wwtinksk9 on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 04:45:07 PM PST

Ok this is what we came up with after testing and testing again (petco)
Half well water half Reverse Osmoesis water and it comes out to 7.6 ph with a high Kh she didn't say what but said my ph will be moveable if I need to move it up or down where I wouldn't be able to with the straight well water(place was busy) Oh and with the 1/2 and 1/2 mixture I get  a 11dgh hardness

but get this went to a place a very nice pet store I might add with beautiful fish that looked well cared for, and told him about my situation ....guess what ! all his tanks are from water that cycles through a water softener and he swears by it ....his fish looked great and happy...now I'm more confused then ever :(

[ Parent ]



Water softeners usually don't take out all of the (none / 0) (#29)
by unclescott on Sat Mar 05, 2005 at 05:53:19 PM PST

calcium/magnesium. There is a fair amount of sodium in the water though.

Our municipality has basically a village-wide-basement-water-softener. I'm grateful to them for removing the iron and sulfur, which have always been hated presences in other suburbs with wells south of Chicago. However the sodium in the water is hard on houseplants and the blood pressure of older residents.

Desertification in the planter is not a happy scene.

Lots of killies, which reproduced like weeds, stopped leaving viable eggs when we moved here. (The water tasted so good I though they had "Chicago" or Lake Michigan water.) When rainwater was added to some of the tap water,some fish began laying fertile eggs. When the RO was completely remade, more began leaving good eggs. King's Tetra fry began appearing with the folks - that was a pretty cool surprise even if they are an "easy" tetra to spawn.

Of course many North American killies, the livebearers (actually there are a couple of soft water South American livebearers) and the small Rift Lake Cichlids thrived in the hard, salty, alkaline tap water. If I had more of them, I would have piped the RO outflow to them. Hummmm...

Speaking of plants, does your LFS display any plants other than the salt tolerant Vals, hornwort, Java fern, sags, maybe the Java moss and Najas and not too much else? There are a lot of plants, which will survive slightly saline water for a while, but not for years.

This is a little off topic, but it has been a while since houseplants and bog plants offered for sale as aquarium plants have been mentioned. Most of them will live for a couple of months under water. By then they are in someone's home and the local aquarist mistakenly thinks that they just can't keep plants alive.

Bullwinkle! It has to do with those palms, Sandrianas, prayer plants, and marsh plants (which legitimately are submerged annually for a couple of months) being sold. It is a clever ploy.

Asked a friend who used to have a shop, why in the world he would stock Sandriana. He replied," I tried not to. The customers yelled at me!" I guess if "we" as consumers demand or at least buy these things, we should expect them to continue in shops.

All the best!
unc;e

[ Parent ]



Water Softner (rainsoft) with Reverse Osmoesis | 28 comments (28 topical, 0 hidden)
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