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Rosy Cheeks? | 13 comments (13 topical, 0 hidden)
GL15, are the gills beginning to shift from pink (none / 2) (#1)
by unclescott on Thu Feb 24, 2005 at 09:03:59 PM PST

to tan or brown? Are the fish either breathing faster or getting lethargic. These are signs that fish wastes, first as ammonia and then as nitrites or nitrates, are accumulating towards toxic levels. Even if conditions are just kept as they are now, your fish's immune systems will be hurt. Doing nothing to change that means, I fear, that they will be pretty ill or dead within a week.

Healthy gills are bright red. Discoloration seems to be a visual sign of how difficult effective breathing is becoming.

Is there any food on the tank bottom? This would indicate that you are over feeding your fish. All of us need to work at feeding (and often overfeed)  when we start with fish new to us. Feeding is something of an art form with each species and tank community. But if we do overfeed, we need to get that extra food siphoned up within a few hours or the food begins decaying, adding ammonia and those other organic products to the water. That will increase the poisons in the water.

I think I asked either you or your name sake, a day or three back, if your tap water has chlorine or chlorine and ammonia (= chloramine) in it. The ammonia dumped into your tap water can add to you aquarium problems. Remember you also need to be collecting a container or containers of water, so you can do partial water changes from time to time. (In fact tap water, with a high level of ammonia, used to mix baby formula, has been blamed for the deaths of human infants, who also can't tolerate high levels of those things in their blood!)

If you still have time tonight, do a 20-40% water change. Don't feed them again until you do a water change. If you don't have tap water saved up, save some now and partially change water tomorrow afternoon, after adding a water conditioner to the new water.

There are several things you can put into your filter to chemically pull some of this fish waste stuff out of the water. Rinsed activated carbon, put in a filter bag, will be good for a day or three with your high levels of waste material. In your situation, I would put new carbon in over the weekend, maybe Sunday.

There are also a number of very expensive items which will absorb ammonia and it's daughter products. Polyfilter, Ammonia-zorb and the like can be recommended by your LFS. They may cost more than the fish.

Water conditioners like Ammolock, Amquel (or Amquel 1) and maybe Stress Coat would be good quick fixes. They are cheaper than those items mentioned above. If you have one of them, apply it according to the manufacturer's instructions. All of them more or less chemically bond the ammonia products in the water. In time those chemical bonds will break down and the ammonia will be active in the water again.

So you need to start changing water now. Yes water changes, chemically active filter media and even plants will "slow down" the ammonia cycling (which will go on for a few weeks). But they will get some of that "stuff" out of there and allow the process of building up a population of "good guy" bacteria to grow in numbers so that they can more efficiently break down the very toxic ammonia into the quite toxic nitrites which can then be broken down into the just every day toxic nitrates.

I know that this chemistry stuff may not be what you bargained for when you got your guppies. Even the every-day digestion of food by your fish or you and I are chemical processes though.

(There have been mentions of that stuff all over Guppylog and the books, but I don't think we really believe how important that is to our fish until they are threatened with serious damage or death. Almost all of us go through this stage of denial when we first begin the hobby.)

If you or your Mom can call your LFS tomorrow, ask them if they will test aquarium water. The last time I looked at a local shop, the shop charged the not unreasonable fee of a dollar per test. If you live in a higher income area, the tests may be more.

There are many on GL who can tell you more about ammonia, nitrate or nitrite tests. I hope they do.

According to Fairfield's book, ammonia levels above 0.3 mg/L will cause serious damage. He suggests that nitrite levels above 10 mg/L will begin to be toxic. Nitrate toxicity begins at about 100mg/L. If you have test kits for any of these or if the LFS can give you test readings, compare them with Dr. Fairfield's cautions.

There are some aquarium club jokes about brilliantly colored dead fish. When the levels of those substances above suddenly rise, some fish will suddenly become as colorful as you have even seen them. (I don't know why.) You don't want to see what are essentially their "going away colors" though. :(

You may be tempted to panic. You wouldn't be the first of us. Take several deep breaths. ASAP, take a gravel vacuum to the gravel area under where you drop food. Make sure any gunk is out of there. Gently add new water.

Small world, I too must sign off and go change some water, especially in my quarantine bowls, because they have no effective nitrogen cycles. In that, they are all too similar to a newly set up aquarium.

Good luck and all the best!
u.s.



Re: GL15, are the gills beginning to shift from pi (none / 0) (#6)
by GuppyLuver15 on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 01:16:41 PM PST

Ok first off, is there any test thing I can do to see the amount of Amonia in the water? I will get it if it is a reasonable price...
The redish part is actually more by their first fins.  Here is what it looks like, it is not exactly it though, it is also redder: http://www.guppies.com/PAGES/guppixpages/PIX/gp36.jpg
It looks like red spot near her first fin.  My male doesn't seem to have it. But both my females have it. Is it a pregnancy thing?
It looks better than when I saw it yesterday. The water doesn't have cholorine because I let it sit for 24 hours before putting the fish in.
Thank your for your help!

Guppy Luver
[ Parent ]


Re: GL15, are the gills beginning to shift from pi (none / 2) (#10)
by PeterW on Sat Feb 26, 2005 at 01:23:25 PM PST

I personally have an "Ammonia alert" in every tank that I have running.  They're relatively expensive ($7-$8 in stores), but it is cheaper than losing an entire tank due to ammonia poisoning or having to resort to expensive medication to try and cure a disease outbreak caused by ammonia stress or injuries.

BTW: there are two types of ammonia measurements.  Ammonia exists in two forms, "Free ammonia" (NH3) and ionic ammonia (NH4+).  Free ammonia is a dissolved gas, while ionic ammonia is part of a chemical molecule with other ions.  Free ammonia is extremely toxic compared to ionic ammonia.  Ionic ammonia is not toxic, but it won't stay in entirely in ionic form.. read on.

There is a relationship between pH, temperature and and the free vs ionic ammonia levels.  The higher the pH, the ionic form tends to shift into 'free' form.  Thus a simple pH shift can convert a tolerable ionic ammonia level into a lethal one in the blink of an eye.

Most tests that you get in stores measure ionic ammonia.  Seachem's tests will tell you both, and the 'ammonia alert' is a gas diffusion test that measures 'free ammonia' directly since that is the one you're really scared of.

To be clear, you can have two tanks that test the same levels on the 'total ammonia' scales, and yet one can be tolerable to fish, while the other can be absolutely lethal.

I've found this out the hard way.  Our tap water pH is 9.2, and that tends to cause relatively low levels of ionic ammonia to change state to free ammonia.  Doing a large partial water change has killed my fish!!!  (I did a 50% change, and when I came back 30 minutes later the ammonia alert was dark purple and the fish were dead).  My test tube kit showed nothing particularly bad.

According to this: http://ce.ecn.purdue.edu/~piwc/w3-research/free-ammonia/nh3.html a pH increase of 1 point will cause the free ammonia equilibriuum ratio to increase 10-fold.  (hardly suprising given that the 1 point is a 10-fold increase in alkalinity as well).

Anyway, this experience and other factors finally forced me into building an auto water changer so that I can now automatically do two 5% water changes every day, without fail.  My problematic murkey tanks all cleared up, my unexplained fish deaths have reduced, and unfortunately my population explosion has become much worse.

Incidently, this equilibrium ratio is what ammonia detox chemicals try to mess up.  They introduce another ion to the solution that binds so darn tightly to the ionic ammonia ions that very little 'free ammonia' forms.

Also, this is why the two-chemical test-tube ammonia tests use two chemicals.  One is the indicator, the second is a strong alkaline chemical.  The second one causes the pH of the test tube solution to increase well beyond pH 12 in order to force all the ionic ammonia to convert to 'free' ammonia for measuring.  But here's the trick, the indicator agents in the new tests (yellow through green) bind less strongly to ammonia ions than the 'tetox' chemicals do.  As a result, they dont 'see' the "detoxified" ammonia.  So what "Amquel Plus" and "Ammo lock" are doing is introducing a chemical that holds onto ammonia so tightly that it has very little chance of converting into free ammonia, and so tight that even the new-style ammonia tests won't see it.  And since it can't convert to free ammonia, it can't poison your fish.

This is why you should avoid ammonia detox chemicals during tank cycling.  The extremely tight binding makes it very difficult for the bacteria to break it down.  If it doesn't cause it to starve and die, it will certainly slow its growth   You really don't want it in there.  In my opinion, steer clear of 'ammo lock' (and to a lesser degree, 'amquel plus') type chemicals during cycling.

At the end of the day, this also explains why people running alkaline tanks (which livebearers prefer) are running further into the ammonia danger zone than people running acidic tanks.  This is why it is so important to get the cycle working right.

[ Parent ]



Re: GL15, are the gills beginning to shift from pi (none / 0) (#8)
by miskairal on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 02:11:47 PM PST

Hmmm
That's different to what I've seen on my guppies.
--
Repeat after me,
I will read the Immediate Help
[ Parent ]


Re: GL15, are the gills beginning to shift from pi (none / 0) (#2)
by miskairal on Thu Feb 24, 2005 at 11:43:27 PM PST

I didn't notice the red gills either when I first had guppies. It is way more noticeable if you are behind the fish or below. When looking from front on or above, you can't really see it.

Those quarantine tank/bowls you mention unc;e, how often and how much water do you change? I've never managed to get down to the nitty gritty of what to do in an uncycled tank (apart from testing) and in a Q tank the fish may only be there a week.

Cheers
miskairal
--
Repeat after me,
I will read the Immediate Help
[ Parent ]



Bowls are not the best choice. Sometimes you use (none / 1) (#4)
by unclescott on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 07:59:04 AM PST

what you have, in the space that you have. They are only half gallon and gallon bowls (1.9 & 3.8 liters). Could have also used large mouthed gallon pickle jars. The female and male Aplocheilus lineatus (the wild red form of the Golden Wonder Killie) were separated by gender. There are also two female Mel. praecox, the dwarf neon rainbow, who were kept in their bowl too long. (There are 7 male praecox eager to make their acquaintance. Having more rainbow males is not such a problem - they will keep an eye on each other, sparing the females from getting too much attention.) Killies and many livebearers can be kept in smaller containers, IF they are tightly covered and the water changed pretty frequently.

Because of redecorating elsewhere in the house, the fish were vacated from a 55 and a 40-gallon tank. Those fish are in a 40 gallon rubber maid storage container and a 32 gallon trash barrel (long ago dedicated to fishy things). The barrel of rainbows also has it's own powerhead and sponge filter. The residents seem happy and hungry at 68 degrees F/ 20C.

If there were guppies being held in a container like that, it would be placed on styrofoam for insulation and an Ebo-Jaeger submersible heater would be installed. I would rather not take them below 75-6 F/ 24 C.

Those two containers, in the middle of the floor, sure alter the foot traffic pattern. Try tippy-toeing around them while holding a 1/3 full, graveled ten-gallon tank. ;)

Rainbows need space, lots of oxygen and current and they, none too soon, got plunked into a ten-gallon tank. The schnoodle and I will run out this morning for one of those small submerged canister filters (essentially an enclosed sponge filter with a current) for their tank. Have an extra powerhead, but that would be too much for a 10-gal/40 L tank. We want rainbows in a current, not flying fish. :)

One of them is a bit clamped with a little fin damage. Maybe, for the first time, will try Melafix (as per Maggie's recommendations). If it is a bacterial problem, it can be healed. If it is fish TB, that will be trouble. (Goodbye! Goodbye!)

The killifish were wonderfully robust and had been very well fed at the LFS. That has been a part of the problem. Even after two water changes, they kept regurgitating food and/or passing it through their digestive tract. The water keeps getting really funky.

I'm not even pretending that the bowls are cycled. Either daily or every second day, they are getting roughly a 95% water change. The water is decanted so as much as possible can be poured into a "out" bucket without losing the fish. About 70% of that new water is from my "start up tank," the rest from the 50 gallon (food quality) "seasoning" barrel.

Because the frequently changed water is all from the same sources, acclimation for chemical differences is not an issue. (I know a couple big time breeders who run daily 95% water changes on their tanks. The water comes heated, run through a carbon-block filter, to the tanks. One can only make changes on that scale if they are consistent. If water changes are missed for a couple of days, then they must back the changes down to 25-45% or mess up the fish.

Those fish have not been fed this week and will not be, until Sunday night or Monday AM. (We may return through one of those famous snowstorms blowing off of the Great Lakes and will feel like doing nothing else.) So long as they are not in a breeding situation, that fast should not be a problem.

In a sense, the nitrogen cycle is being imported with the water. By fasting the fish, the water is hopefully not dirtied too badly. Essentially those bowls, usually on a warm, often somewhat shaded shelf, are for observation and, in one case, medication. If dosage is pro-rated for a small container (1/20 of a ten-gallon dosage) without a lot of gravel or plants, application is easier and cheaper.

Have committed to a killifish show this weekend in Elkhart, Indiana. From the standpoint of fellowship, passing out flyers for the Chicago April 9-10 show, keeping up as a judge (which sounds more impressive than it is) and staying in touch, it is important to attend. That doesn't do the fish here much good. It will be nearly impossible to buy anything new because there simply isn't much room to quarantine anybody new.

Oh ... well there is that one vacated, clean ten-gallon tank, full of seasoned water with the biologically active gravel. ;)

Also used one of your tricks for one bowl Miskairal. It is on the glass top of my only heated tank. It is holding at 75 degrees F, a tad cool for lineatus, but at least it is not fluctuating.

If there was something "suspicious" in either a drum bowl or a large-mouthed gallon pickle jar (which seem unlimited in supply), after the fish were in them, they are emptied down the toilet or laundry sink and parked upside down for the winter in an out of the way corner of the patio. Hopefully the cold will kill any "germs". The bleach bucket, in the spring, will finish the cleaning job. By then, there can be quite a fleet, out there in "dry dock".

All the best!
unc;e

[ Parent ]



Re: Bowls are not the best choice. Sometimes you u (none / 0) (#7)
by miskairal on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 01:58:13 PM PST

OK, so if I had my 14 litre Q tank with 1 or 2 guppies in it and I didn't want to stress them further by putting them through the tank cycling and if I had no access to SAFE water from another source or any other objects that might contain good bacteria, would it be best to do daily  water changes of the largest possible volume without removing the fish? (Providing the clean water source was the same as their tank water). Maybe a 25-50% water change would be insufficient?

You mention the internal filter with the single sponge. I'ts always bothered me giving that sponge a rinse in the dirty tank water I have just removed. I keep wondering just how much damamge I am doing to the tank ecology. Well, it's taken me about 10 months to figure this out but next water change I'm going to cut that sponge in half and only rinse half each week.

It's funny how you use the extreme cold temperatures to kill off bacteria and I use the sun and heat. I have a really great spot downstairs where the sun shines in for about 6 hours a day so I leave all my buckets and nets lined up to cop the blast. I know they won't last as long and will become brittle but it's so easy to do.

Cheerio
miskairal
--
Repeat after me,
I will read the Immediate Help
[ Parent ]



Re: Bowls are not the best choice. (none / 1) (#5)
by guppygirl on Fri Feb 25, 2005 at 09:30:36 AM PST

Well, when I came across unc;e's statement that he was signing off now to do some work on his Q tanks, I had an attack of the guilts, and went off to do the same.

It seems even with his altered traffic pattern he finished well before I did.

Someday I'll get to finish cleaning the basement, so I will have more room to store water.

Sigh!

gg
:o)

[ Parent ]



Rosy Cheeks? | 13 comments (13 topical, 0 hidden)
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