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Questions about Ph, Alkalinity, Ect. | 9 comments (9 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: Questions about Ph, Alkalinity, Ect. (none / 0) (#2)
by manders200232 on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 01:54:04 AM PST

I have had my tank about a week now. But I wasn't aware of the fact that you had to let it sit. I have a pleco and about 8 guppies. It's a five gallon tank.. is that too much? thanks for your help!!!

[ Parent ]


Re: Questions about Ph, Alkalinity, Ect. (none / 0) (#4)
by miskairal on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 12:44:53 PM PST

I think you'll have to do some water changes to get your nitrites safe. Manders, take a look at the flashing link in the top right called Immediate Help, there are a lot links there to guppylog pages that will help you.

You have too many fish for that size tank. If I were you I'd see the petshop and ask if you can take back the plecos which they shouldn't have sold you in the first place. Then you are going to need to do at least twice weekly water changes to keep up with the number of guppies as DJ said.
--
Repeat after me,
I will read the Immediate Help
[ Parent ]



Re: Questions about Ph, Alkalinity, Ect. (none / 0) (#3)
by DJIsaac on Wed Dec 07, 2005 at 07:33:40 AM PST

Well you might want to think about getting a new tank, for one major reason that I can think of. Pleco's can grow huge, and one day will overgrow your tank, Ive had 8 guppies in that small space before, Under aquaria they say that the perfect tank should be 1 gallon per inch of fish. ;/ but thats quite alot of water.. This can be changed though by adjusting water changes. The more fish, the more water changes, because all those fish doing there buisness brings up certain chem lvl's, and thus the water changes help keep it at a managable lvl

[ Parent ]


Hey manders! (none / 1) (#5)
by unclescott on Thu Dec 08, 2005 at 12:48:45 PM PST

You've raised several very important questions. DJ and miskairal are of course correct, if your guppies haven't outgrown their tank, they soon will. If you were to offer up a Dear Santa to the right party or parties, maybe a 10-gallon or 20-gallon stand and tank would put in an appearance  on Christmas.  There would even be room for your 5-gallon one the lower level.

Whatever you do, don't get any more fish or over feed. :(  Several of us have prevailed through worse situations. :)

If your tap water is very hard, that means it has a lot of minerals or "mineral salts" in it like calcium, magnesium and maybe iron. At a certain level, those can be fatal, even to a hardwater fish like guppies. So DJ's and miskairal's suggestions about a couple of partial water changes a week are spot on, both to dilute the mineral content and even more importantly to dilute the nitrogenous toxins,.

Did you test the tap water and the bottled water and make comparisons?  What did they measure out as?

By the way. curing the water with a water conditioner means that the chlorine is forced out of the water because of an interesting reaction to Sodium Thiosulfate. The possible ammonia in your water is temporarily chemically bonded to a substance suspiciously like formalin or a formaldehyde derivative. It will bubble loose in a few days or weeks, which is another reason we want to get your tank's cycling process on its way.  There are also substances in there which will bond heavy metals such as copper from your pipes, lead from your municipal pipes, and maybe even the aluminum sulfate (alum!) many of our water departments are putting into are water supplies to keep the pH up so more of the lead pipes don't dissolve.

Those don't do anything about getting the over abundance of carbon dioxide (CO2) and free nitrogen (which can form the bubbles on the sides of tanks or water holding containers) in the water and allow a little free oxygen to settle into the water (much to the delight of out guppies). Putting an airstone in there may help too. All that is why we need to let the water sit a few days *

Several holding containers, all sort of food quality plastic, gallon water jug or very clean (soap-less, usually hot water soaked milk bottles with the top off), the better garbage cans never used for garbage, those food quality 50-gallon drums and all sorts of plastic storage containers or, maybe best of all, those five-gallon clear water bottles from office water coolers (available from the guys who drive the trucks and all sorts of re-sale stores) can be used for that process. Either locating those containers where it is warm (or if you are an over-achiever) sitting them on pieces of styrofoam and putting a high power submersible aquarium heater in them will prepare the water for water changes.

Bottled water, most, perhaps all of the time, is basically rebuilt R.O. water with healthful additions of calcium-something-or-other, magnesium-something-or-other and (for flavor) a set portion of potassium-something-or-other. Look at the ingredients label. It probably is somewhat hard, but not as hard as your tap water.

I was started when a neighbor purchased one of those Betta vases. The instructions said to use bottled water. Presumably there is no chlorine, ammonia, ammonia, CO2, alum or the other bad stuff in there. Also, I wouldn't be surprised to find that it was aerated a little, though I couldn't prove it. (I do know a bottler though and could call him.) The people promoting the Betta bowl must have figured that a couple water bottled a week was affordable. They also must figured that a lot trouble with the tap water could be avoided.

Thinking about your questions, I swung by the beverage section at a local drug store, while running errands. The gallon bottles of water cost between a dollar (U.S.) and about $1.45. Three to five of those is a lot of money to just to do partial water changes on a ten-gallon tank. So you would probably be able to do those changes for a period of time and lower the tank's hardness. It might be cheaper to buy one or two bottles of RO or distilled or DI (deionized) water and mix that in with your tap water. Depending upon your I would recommend 1 gallon of the demineralized water per 3 gallons of your tap water.

However if your tap water hardness is only 200PPM or about 13 DH (Degrees Hardness), I would just go with it. Far more important is whether you are doing partial weekly water changes with water which is seasoned one way or the other. Especially in the winter, if you are not doing these changes, it does matter in the long run whether your are adjusting your water's hardness. Your fish will eventually slow down, suffocate and die of nitrogen poisoning.

If your tank is not showing any ammonia reading, but is already showing a spike of nitrates already, the process is going along. In time there should be a rise of nitrites and a drop in nitrate readings. What we all hope for are readings which show no ammonia or nitrates and a safe amount of nitrites. A test kit here suggests under 1PPM nitrite is ok, above it is not. An on-line source suggested one should realistically aim for under 25 PPM of nitrite.

Your pH is a little high. The higher the pH, the more dangerous is ammonia, et al. That just means (oh no, he's going to say it again!) keep changing the water. ;)

However, as fish pass waste products, as the bacteria cycle these products, those biological processes will drop your pH a little. That is better than messing around with chemicals to drop the pH.

Alkalinity is the measure of substances, often carbonates, which buffer your pH (up). Baking soda is an example of such a substance. You can have a high pH, yet fair low Alkalinity measures. In such a situation if the water gets diluted with demineralized water or if the fish are actively dumping waste products into the water, the pH will drop. If there is a low K reading, the pH will drop faster.

I wish that more shops would tell their new customers about fish-less cycling. A lot of info is becoming available on the Net. For a bit more see
http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/bcycling.htm
http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/cycling2.htm

Would you see if you can get soap-less, clean (not oily) containers so that you can really hold on to some water for a few days before water changes? Right now, that is one of the most important things you can do for your fishes.

You may just be able to hot water soak and blast out gallon milk jugs. Drinking water gallon jug (or the 3 gallon ones) are easier to prepare. Just drink the water. ;)  And store them out of the sun.

Of course, there are all sorts of fancy water holders available through home brew places and/or lab supply places. But wow, are they expensive! Even Rubbermaid 7-gal. Water Cooler (for campers) are expensive!

The five-gallon water cooler bottles are surprisingly expensive. Of course I snagged two last summer for a dollar each through a garage sale and a re-sale shop.

All the best!
uncle (still not a chemist) scott

* historically anything between 2-3 days and, for one over achiever with a cistern, a year!


[ Parent ]



Re: Hey manders! (none / 0) (#6)
by manders200232 on Thu Dec 08, 2005 at 01:11:13 PM PST

thanks for all of the tips.. I've lost 2 of my guppies today and all of the rest of them are basically losing their tails or have a white substance on them which im assuming it's ich. I'm guessing that they are all going to die now. I have been treating them for 3 days now but it isn't seeming to make a difference. I hope you are reading this because I was wondering if I should just change all of the water in the tank after they all die? I really want to keep guppies but it seems so challenging at times. They are walmart fish also, so that probably doesn't help the situation. Anyways should I change all of the water since they are all sick?
thanks for all of your help i really appreciate it

[ Parent ]


For now, can you treat some tap water and (none / 0) (#7)
by unclescott on Thu Dec 08, 2005 at 08:39:12 PM PST

let it sit until tomorrow? Try a 25% water change. Then Saturday or Sunday, a 30% water change.... Feed not at all for a day or two, then, if they eat, sparingly.

What are your treating them with?

Don't buy any Corys just now. ;)

If everything dies, and I hope that doesn't happen, then, depending upon your climate, we may talk about boiling the gravel and (if you or your folks can do this) putting a little bleach (outside) into the tank to kill all of the "bugs" off. After serious rinsing, some dechlorinator can be placed in the tank.

In the upper Midwest, a lot of the upper 2/3s of the US and a lot of the Northern Hemisphere right now, it is a tough time to bleach tanks. I bleached 20 tanks and bowls, but that was last fall and summer. Most of the hair on my right arm has grown back. ;)

It is also possible to do a salt soak, where the aquarium is filled with a super saline solution. This is safer for you and your home, but must be done where salt water will not splash and damage furniture, electronics or rugs. Basements or laundry rooms, with the current administration's blessing, are recommended.

Then when the tank is clean, by whatever means, you could start a fish-less cycling of the tank. I think that would be a great way to start and far less stressful for you and any fish. :)

All the best!
u.s.

[ Parent ]



Re: For now, can you treat some tap water and (none / 0) (#8)
by DJIsaac on Fri Dec 09, 2005 at 07:53:33 AM PST

Ive heard that instead of using Bleach, that some people use vinagar... I guess it should work, and would have better chances of not leaving pools of really harmfull substances in your tank, like say bleach might if not properly cleaned out..

[ Parent ]


Vinegar is more often used to get rid of (none / 0) (#9)
by unclescott on Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 09:07:34 AM PST

the mineral deposits on the side of the tank. People will put it on and let it sit a bit before scrubbing with a paper towel or plastic pot scrubber. Some of those marks on the glass are actually etched into the glass. Nothing can get those out.

Vinegar is a mild acid, measuring about 4. I don't know that it would dissolve any harmful critters. Most bacteria certainly couldn't live or at least reproduce at that acid a pH. Bleach, pH of 12, is a fearsome base, very alkaline, with that very high pH and it does dissolve dissident organisms.

Vinegar can be used to neutralize any chlorine residual after bleaching and rinsing. Your tank smells a little like a pickle. ;) One could probably fill the tank one more time with warmish water. Just before that last fill, put in a little baking soda in (pH of only 8).

If there is any suspicion that the fish died of Fish TB (Mycobacterium of some sort, not the species which attacks human lungs) after the bleaching, one party suggested rubbing down the tank, soaking everything else, in rubbing alcohol. Evidentially the cell membranes of Mycobacterium are so tough, they resist the bleach, but collapse in the presence of the alcohol. That is one tough bacteria!

All the best!
uncle (still not a chemist) scott

[ Parent ]



Questions about Ph, Alkalinity, Ect. | 9 comments (9 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
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