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New Guppy Owner- Very early death | 13 comments (13 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

It is possible that your guppies are dying of fin (none / 2) (#1)
by unclescott on Mon Jan 17, 2005 at 10:15:05 AM PST

rot, which they contacted at the shop. :(

(Please check out the entries under that topic in the Guppylog Quicklinks - to be found in the upper right hand box on the home page.) Also, what temperature is the aquarium kept at?

However, I have a bad feeling about your algae cleaner. It is not fair to expect new aquarists to know all about the fish. Sometimes the folks working in the shops don't know much more. Other shop owners know, but don't warn customers about the behavior, diet or ultimate size of their purchases. (Then when fish die, the customer returns for more.)

It is not always easy to do, but take a 3x5 note card, your personal planner or whatever you jot notes on (where's that old envelop?) before you purchase a new fish or fishes. Jot their names down. Either stop by the library for a good fish book, go on-line (Google is your friend, we can help here too) or buy a good aquarium reference book.

For a recent article on books on GL, please check out:
http://www.guppylog.com/story/2004/12/28/182048/67

That book for newbies can be borrowed through an inter-library loan. It may also make a nice present to your girlfriend. ;)

Now, I have a real question as to what that algae eater is. I also have a question as to why you felt (or your fish dealer felt) that you had to have one just now. I'm surprised that they would suggest adding more fish when your tank's nitrogen cycle is still developing during that crucial first month.

Was there any algae to eat in the tank? Even a "plecostomus" (probably a Hypostomus species) needs a lot of veggie bulk. If it is not there, they need a bunch of flake food on the bottom of the tank. Since most of them in the shops are really starved, it is even remotely possible they would bother your guppies if there was no other food source.

It is more likely that the algae eater you purchased was a so-called Chinese algae eater (Gyrinocheilus aymonieri). They are common in the trade, but shouldn't be so.

Your Chinese algae eater will be true to it's name for a while. Then as it grows (towards 1 foot) it will become a bully, chasing and sucking body slime off of other fish. :(

If it has nothing to eat, it very possibly will go after your guppies now. All creatures have an imperative to try and survive, unless they are really, really sick.

Watch to see if that creature is attacking your guppies. If it is and you still have a plastic bag from the shop, catch that fish, put it in the bag with a couple of inches of water (leave it open) and float it in the tank. Call your shop and ask the proprietor or manager if they will take the "Thai slime sucker" back.

If they will not, put the fish outside (if it is as cold as our 10 degrees F at the moment) and the fish will perish pretty quickly. Then make a quick set of calls to your local Chamber of Commerce and
Better Business Bureau and note that said retailer seems inclined to sell unsuspecting customers, fatally incompatible fish.

There are a lot of tricks which can limit algae in a tank without having to buy a "working fish". One is having plants which will absorb the nutrients the algae would use. Secondly, be as faithful as possible in changing 30-40% of your tank's water with "seasoned" water every week.

A third suggestion is that if any algae grows on the tank sides and you don't like it, cut down the hours your tank light is on. If a lot of light is coming in from a window (perhaps while you are at work - check on the weekend), then a tank background or even white paper can be taped to the side/back of the tank where the sunlight is entering.

Don't use black paper facing the sun because it could absorb a lot of heat. White on the sides, like light gravel, can cause your fishes' colors to fade. I'm planning on using white posterboards on the back of a large living room tank. I will figure out how to either tape a dark blue paper or standard tank background inside of that posterboard, facing the tank. Oh yes, don't use construction paper, because that stuff bleeds color all over the place!

If a little algae forms on the front of your tank, it can be easily removed with a soap-less plastic pot scrubber inexpensively picked up at your grocery store. Rinse it thoroughly before first using it. Dedicate it's use just to your tank. :)

You guppies will actually eat some of the scraps. The rest can be removed with a gravel vac.

Green algae is actually a sign that your tank is reasonably healthy. It is one of nature's ways of cleaning up an excess of fish waste material. If you were to find that green-blue slime, a cyanobacteria, then your tank has a serious pollution problem. Even that can be effectively dealt with though (through physical removal and militant gravel vacuuming). I have been amazed to see fish reproducing around that stuff. I guess sometimes the fish don't read the books.

Good luck! Please let us know what that "algae eater probably is.

All the best!
uncle scott

New Tank Syndrome? (none / 0) (#8)
by maggie1270 on Mon Jan 17, 2005 at 05:51:35 PM PST

Since it had only cycled for a week before adding fish, I wonder if the tank was not ready for that many fish at once.
Maggie
[ Parent ]

Those darn chinese algae eaters (none / 0) (#7)
by maggie1270 on Mon Jan 17, 2005 at 05:50:04 PM PST

can definitely be bullies, especially when there are more than one. Once I took the bigger one away, the smaller one seems to be much happier and even less agressive towards the other fish. I'm also adding algae tablets for him but I would not recommend it for aquariums with small fish. I have a friend that has at least 2 with 2 plecos in a 55 gallon with large agressive fish and he complains of how lazy they are. You wouldn't believe all the algae he has to scrape off his tank. It's too funny.
Maggie
[ Parent ]

Re: It is possible that your guppies are dying of (none / 0) (#2)
by silentdante on Mon Jan 17, 2005 at 10:24:12 AM PST

I'm pretty sure that the algae eater is a pleco, but I wasn't there when it was purchased, so I'm not positive. I'll have to check the paperwork. As far as I've noticed, it doesn't seem to bother the guppies. It keeps to itself and stays hidden most of the time. The temperature is being kept between 78 and 80 degrees farenheit, though on the morning I woke to find the first sick fish, it had somehow dropped to 76, so I re-set the heater. We have simply noticed discoloration and the tails turn translucent. I'll do some more research and let you know what I find.

[ Parent ]

If the problem is not directly from the (none / 1) (#3)
by unclescott on Mon Jan 17, 2005 at 12:43:52 PM PST

new fish, so much the better. Hypostomus can also be carriers of various fish diseases though. Except for velvet or ick, which don't sound like what you were describing, it should not have carried any malady which would effect your guppies that fast though. They are either being killed by a disease they contacted in the shop - or more likely the wholesaler's - (which, owing to the stress of being moved tank to tank, is now "blooming") or they are reacting to tough conditions in the tank.

When you mention that you tested the water, what did you guys test it for? It is quite possible that there might be more ammonia/ nitrate or nitrite (or one of them) than is good for the fish. That filter in the water for the last week is great for knocking a lot of the chlorine from the tap out of the water and mixing a little oxygen in. Some nitrogen and ammonia in the tap water may also have been driven off or used to start the growth of "good guy" bacteria in the filter, on the gravel, tank sides and other surfaces. Filters don't really get going until a few grams of ammonium chloride or a couple of hardy fish are added to the tank.

Another trick of the trade is to get a bunch of gravel from another aquarist's healthy tank. If scooped up from their tank and kept wet (and above freezing this time of the year), it can "seed" the gravel in your tank.

I recently poured 15 lbs. of extra gravel in a tank with just this purpose in mind. Um.... you wouldn't live near Chicagoland, would you? ;)

A partial quick fix right now would be to add a water treatment that chemically bonds ammonia for a little while. Ammolock and the original Amquel immediately come to mind. Your LFS can probably do a better job of recommending something which will "lock up" extra ammonia for the time being. That slows down the development of the nitrogen cycle. It will still develop though and you fish will not be as stressed by an ammonia spike.

If you haven't been testing for any of those waste products mentioned above, call up you LFS and ask if they can test a water sample from your girl friend's tank. Also discretely inquire about any guarantee on the livestock. If they will replace dead fish in the first week, ask whether they want the bodies and if so, in the bag or "mounted" on a piece of paper towel or cardboard.

You probably have not had a chance to plow through the Quicklinks on tailrot, but please do so. An "over-the-phone" diagnosis like this is very tricky, but those should be some help.

Here is a link to a site with an example of tail rot - which can look different on different fishes.

http://guppyplace.tripod.com/Ailments.html

Here is a platy on the road to recovery from tailrot:
http://www.joshmadison.com/aquarium/images/fish/red_wag_tail_platy_2194.jpg

The following is a drawing of what I think of when tail rot comes to mind:
http://www.aquatics-warehouse.co.uk/extras/Info/Diseases_Cures.html

The references above will suggest an antibiotic you can use. A little salt (not table) and a water conditioner can be added. Don't mix actual medications though!

I fear if they have already discolored, your surviving guppies may already be on the way out. If that happens, keep the pleco (famous for their ability to defecate), give him an algae tablet at a time and let him run the tank though the nitrogen cycle. Continue to do weekly partial water changes (most of the bacteria are on solid items in the tank, not in the water). If everything looks and measures well, try again with a few guppies in February.

In addition to The Everything Tropical Fish Book (Paperback, 2000) by fish heads Carlo Devito and Gregory Skokal, I discovered Terry Fairfield's A Commonsense Guide to Fish Health (Barrons). At half the price of the first book, it may be easier to purchase. Terry's premise is that a correctly set up tank will do a lot to prevent illnesses. You sound like you have done a lot of things right, but his work may give you other useful suggestions.

Just for the record, here are some images of Hypostomus species. They are mostly of adult fishes and you may have to look a bit for youngsters.

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&lr=&q=Hypostomus&btnG=Search

The following are Chinese algae eaters, so to speak. As a group, they are much more streamlined than those suckermouth catfish above.

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&lr=&q=Chinese+algae+eater&btnG=Search

I feel mean spirited speculating on whether it is too late for your girl friend's guppies. It may be realistic.

In a general sense, what part of the world do you hail from? (IE, I'm from the suburbs to the south of Chicago, also known as Chi-ca-ga.) It may be that there is a guppy breeder or fish club near you. Often home raised guppies, from the neighborhood, are healthier and adjust better to your water. While that might be an end run on your pet shop, they may then be your source for fish food and supplies for the next several years and they could benefit from that too. :)

By the way, 76 degrees F / 24.4 isn't all that bad for your guppies. 77-78 is ok too, but if they are used to your 79-80 degrees don't change it. Consistency during hard times is important. (And cheap aquarium thermometers are often a tad off. But they do tell us if the temperature is consistent.)

All the best!
u.s.

[ Parent ]

Re: If the problem is not directly from the (none / 0) (#4)
by silentdante on Mon Jan 17, 2005 at 01:20:17 PM PST

No need to feel mean-spirited. We have basically given up on this batch of guppies, we're down to the last one and our hopes are not good for him. We have a home testing kit for pH, Ammonia, and Nitrate, and noticed nothing out of the ordinary in the levels (though I was expecting ammonia levels to rise and didn't see this in my tank). I am confident that I am reading the samples correctly, but I still feel like it should have changed when we added the fish. I currently live in the Atlanta area (though I grew up in Iowa and am a life-long Cubs fan), so if you know of any resources around here, I'd love to hear about them. Thanks for all your help so far, I'll keep updating as the situation progresses.

[ Parent ]

Don't go away from Guppylog just because (none / 1) (#6)
by unclescott on Mon Jan 17, 2005 at 03:35:19 PM PST

there are some local resources for you. We need all the input we can get and appreciate the good company, which happens by. :)

The only Atlanta aquarist I know of (other than a couple of people through books) is David Ramsey, a great guy who is into killies and N.A. native fishes. He isn't into guppies, though I'd bet he has had them and breeds Corys, but he is bright and gracious and has a nice web site. ;)
http://www.djramsey.com/tropfish/

There are several pretty useful lists of Aquarium Societies on-line. Let me mention for your benefit and the benefit of others:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/greatercity/links1.htm
http://www.ifocas.fsworld.co.uk/

There is, as I actually knew, an Atlanta Aquarium Society. Their site, down at the moment, is

http://www.atlantaaquarium.com/

Their contact person is:
Atlanta Area Aquarium Association
George Libby
1730 Rhett Butler Drive
Lilburn, Georgia 30247
(404) 978-2117

But wait! There is also a local guppy group, which I was unaware of! I hope Snellville is sort of close. ;) (Having traveled 120 miles each way Saturday to and from an auction and 50 miles each way Friday night to get to my killifish club, I can appreciate traveling to fishy events. I know people on the great plains and even upstate New York who drive 6 hours each way to meetings or just for visits with other fish heads.)

Georgia Guppy Group
2346 Hidden Lane, Snellville, GA 30078, Alan E. Opdyke, Phone: 770-484-3250, Fax : 770-484-3301. Meets the 3rd Saturday of every month at 1 PM.

There is also an IFGA associate, though the Deep South to me is probably like the Midwest to a lot of others and a huge area. So while they are not close to you, the IFGA end of the year celebration is a whole lot closer to you, than it is to me. ;)

Deep South Fancy Guppy Associates (IFGA) Sponsoring the IFGA annual meeting (There national show at the end of the year.
Show Dates November 4th, 5th & 6th

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DSFGAgroup/

2562 Commanche Drive

Birmingham, AL. 35244

Norman Richardson 251-479-4838

nguppyman@aol.com

You mention growing up in Iowa. (I've been in Illinois most of my life, but have yet to grow up.) There are a couple of legendary aquarists and clubs from Iowa. Joanne Norton seems to have had more to do with organizing the ALA (American Livebearer Association) than anyone else. She was also very involved in developing and researching and publishing articles on many livebearer strains. I believe she was involved with the Central Iowa Aquarium Society. While it is no longer with us (too many aquarium societies have come and gone), they did some terrific things. One enduring contribution to the hobby (if my informant is correct) is they realized that the beautiful butterfly Goodied (endangered even then in Mexico and almost extinct in the wild now) had a very tenuous hold in the American hobby. They got several members to crank them out and send them around the country. It has been suggested that virtually all of the Ameca splendens in the U.S. hobby came from that stock.

Gene Lucas is a professor who is very involved in Betta genetics and who has written a column on Bettas with FAMA magazine for approaching 30 years.

I am acquainted with a couple of very talented and innovative guys out of the Cedar Rapids area. I owe them a lot for some of their insights and approaches to the hobby. There are still a couple of good aquarium societies in the Hawkeye State as well.

As a kid, lived six blocks from a big aquarium society and walked by the savings and loan building it met in, while walking to school. Nobody took out the Innes book or Axelrod and Vorderwinkler's Encyclopedia out of the junior high or high school libraries as often as this fish geek did. The month I left for college, someone mentioned that club to me! It was gone when I had time to look for it later. Isn't that the way!

All the best!
u.s.

[ Parent ]

Re: If the problem is not directly from the (none / 0) (#5)
by silentdante on Mon Jan 17, 2005 at 03:18:59 PM PST

Just a quick update- The algae eater is definitely a pleco- it matches the pictures and the receipt confirms it. It also looks like tail rot is a likely culprit. I just got back from returning the dead fish, and the others in the tank didn't look entirely healthy. I'm going to try to get a picture of my ailing fish, so that you may be able to see something I'm not. Thanks again!

[ Parent ]

Re: If the problem is not directly from the (none / 0) (#9)
by silentdante on Mon Jan 17, 2005 at 08:35:50 PM PST

Ok, I've posted a website showing pictures of the last two guppies from my tank. One is in the late stages of his disease, the other has apparently not been affected yet. Please take a look and let me know what this looks like to more experienced eyes. You've all been wonderfully helpful so far. Here's the address:
http://www.geocities.com/actordante
And U.S., it just so happens that I live right in Snellville! What a coincidence!

[ Parent ]

You live in the town with the guppy club! (none / 0) (#10)
by unclescott on Mon Jan 17, 2005 at 09:17:12 PM PST

Wow! That's gotta be destiny! :)

I'm glad the LFS didn't stick you with an "algae eater." Sounds like they can be trusted at least that far.

Before our children were born, I moonlit one weekend day a week. Imagine the look on a guy's face when he said, "Could you sell me an algae eater?" I smiled and replied, "No."

Let the tank cycle a couple of weeks with the pleco. I would guess "most" of the organisms (bacteria) which started the tail rot would be gone. However the pleco could also carry them and to be safe you might want to treat the tank with an antibiotic. I'm not keen on flippantly treating an aquarium, but it would be nice to have a "clean" pleco and aquarium.

Maybe ask the people in that guppy club since they meet this Saturday. Be forewarned though, if you join, it will not be an especially cheap date. ;)

All the best!
u.s.

[ Parent ]

Re: You live in the town with the guppy club! (none / 0) (#11)
by silentdante on Tue Jan 18, 2005 at 09:30:07 AM PST

Well, we're down to the last guppy, which, as of last night, was in remarkably good health (see the pictures at the address posted in my previous post). I haven't been over to visit this morning, so things may have changed. We also finally noticed a change in the ammonia level, so maybe the nitrogen cycle is starting to kick in. Thanks to the good folks here, I now have confidence that I can eventually get a tank started and keep my little fish healthy.

[ Parent ]

New Guppy Owner- Very early death | 13 comments (13 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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