Welcome to GuppyLog.com
New to Guppylog?
Immediate Help


Conversions and Calculator
Conversions and Tank volume calculator


Add yourself to our guppylog map
Guppylog Members


* Change as much water as often as you can! *
Inkmaker
Front Page · Everything · News · Ask Guppylog · Diaries
Display: Sort:
Ammonia Problem | 7 comments (7 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
Re: Ammonia Problem (none / 0) (#1)
by miskairal on Wed Sep 22, 2004 at 08:57:02 PM PST

Hi there MimiGuppy,

How long have your tanks been setup (with fish added)? Are they new?

miskairal
--
Repeat after me,
I will read the Immediate Help



Re: Ammonia Problem (none / 0) (#3)
by MimiGuppy on Thu Sep 23, 2004 at 06:09:50 PM PST

I started circulating my tank about a week before I got my fish and it's been running for about 1 week. Also, I do 50% water changes about 1 every week. Although I have pregnant female guppies, a fishguy ant a petstore told me I should feed my fish once a day every other day until the Ammonia goes down, but that hasn't worked. And now my Ammonia has broken down and my Nitrite level is at 2.0! Thank you for your ideas UncleScott, and thank you both for the welcome, but I'm still very confused on what to do...

[ Parent ]


Re: Ammonia Problem (none / 1) (#4)
by PeterW on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 03:54:06 PM PST

If your nitrite level is 2.0, then that means that you have only one of the two bacteria colonies running well.  JFYI, The first converts ammonia to nitrite, then second converts nitrite to nitrate.  Ammonia and nitrite are very toxic, nitrate will build up over time and while it is much less toxic you will have to keep it in check or you'll have algae like you wouldn't believe.

The petstore folks are generally well-meaning, but often skimp on the details.  They generally don't tell you that it'll take 4+ weeks for this bacteria to grow.  Its the slowest damn growing bacteria that I've ever heard of.  I too was told to let it circulate for a week before adding fish.  I'm not sure how useful this is though.  It certainly won't achieve anything for the nitrogen cycle.  At least, that was the impression I naively came away from the pet store with.

You NEED fish (or another ammonia source) to get it all started.  What will happen is that the fish secrete ammonia and it will build up.  And up.  And up.  Somewhere between 1-3 weeks later, the ammonia will suddenly start dropping down and the nitrite will spike up dangerously high.  If you have fish in the tank, this can be quite a killer as they're already distressed from ammonia burn (which damages their gills etc) and suddenly the nitrite spikes up.  And then you have to wait, and wait and wait while the second group of bacteria arrive.  And hope that your fish don't get poisoned or suffocate in the meantime.  And finally, the second bacteria get a foothold and the nitite levels drop down fast.. And nitrate goes up.  Fish have a much higher tolerance to nitrate, but it is effectively algae food.  Its not uncommon for the aquarium to suddenly turn green when there is a sudden nitrate increase.  There is a nifty graph here that shows the typical progression through the cycle:   http://www.kordon.com/kpd64.htm

Anyway, this all sounds horrific for the poor fish in the tank, doesn't it?  Unfortunately, it is.  There are a few things you can do.

  1. fishless cycling.  Search for this on google for a recipe, however it might be a bit late for you.  This basically has you set up a tank, and add pure ammonia and keep it at high (dangerous to fish) levels.  You have to test ammonia/nitrite levels every day and maintain the high level by adding more ammonia as needed.  This is the fastest way to have the bacteria grow. When the nitrite goes up, you cut back on the ammonia that you add because everything you add will get converted into nitrite, which will go right off the scale of your test kit.  Unfortunately, you need to keep adding some ammonia to keep that group of bacteria alive.  A few days later, the nitite will drop down quickly, and then you're done.  Stop adding ammonia, wait till it goes to zero (12-24 hours) and then add all your fish.  Note that you have to find pure ammonia for this.  I found mine at albertsons and I've seen it in safeway as well.  Its called 'clear ammonia' or 'white ammonia'.  It is nothing but ammonia and water.  Shake the bottle, it must not froth or foam - that means it has detergent in it.  And you dont want it scented either.

  2. religiously test ammonia/nitite levels EVERY DAY and do whatever water changes you need to keep the levels within safe limits. (note safe, not zero.)  This is a real PITA but if you care for your fish, then you need to do it.  Some people say that partial water changes will reduce the bacteria levels and make it take even longer to get the cycle running, but if you dont want to damage your fish then you'll need to do it.

  3. Get Marineland's BIO-Spira.  Except that you can't, its out of production for another month or so.  If you could get it, it is a live dose of the actual bacteria that you need for the cycle.  For this, you dump it in the tank once, along with the full fish load.  And your nitrogen cycle runs instantly.  Note that this product has to be stored refrigerated and the bacteria will die if it warms up without an instantly available supply of ammonia.  Hence, you have to add the fish with it.  Note that there are lots of manufacturers trying to take advantage of this being unavailable, but I've not heard of any others that are even close to being the same thing but are instead the lesser 'cycle accellerators' (see next item).  Actually, I think there might be one called "Fritz Turbo-start" - but this one isn't as well known in the hobby.  http://www.fritzpet.com/turbo700_main.html

  4. Try out the alternative "cycle accelerators".  In my experience, these are mostly worthless and rate little more than "snake oil" as far as I'm concerned.  They vary a lot, but contain either live bacteria that sort-of help but aren't the right ones so they'll die out, or enzymes or other things to promote bacteria growth.  I'm rather suspicious of either of these strategies.  The first one bothers me a little because I imagine it could compete with the bacteria that you want.  And the second one seems to have successfully caused massive bacterial blooms whenever I tried it.  About the only thing they really achieve as far as I can see is give the pet stores more things to sell (note you have to keep adding these  things every few days for a while), and it might speed things up or reduce the damage that gets done to the fish. ("New Improved Cycle", "Stability", "Stress Zyme", etc etc are all cycle accellerators)

  5. Get a jump-start supply of bacteria from a fully cycled tank.  The bacteria are everywhere in a cycled tank.. in the gravel, in the water, on the ornaments, on the glass, in the filter and/or the filter media, plants, etc.  You want things like old filter media, sludge squeezed from a filter sponge, a scoop of gravel, an ornament, etc.  As much as you can get.  The more the better.  The catch is that you don't want diseases, so fish stores are a very risky place to get it from - unless you can get it from one of their stable show tanks.  This is easier said than done.  If you're making a large purchase, its much easier to coerce them into doing this for you.  Much better would be to get some from a friend's tank.  Offer to buy them some replacements if that is what it takes.  If you can get a bio-wheel from an established tank and have a filter to use it on, take it!  Footnote:  this worked for me.  I had massive disease problems due to fish from many sources and needed to cycle some isolated tanks as quicly as possible.  I had to consider all my existing tanks contaminated.  My local fish store (not pet store) let me have some gravel, water and plant bits from one of their show tanks.  My tank cycled in 36 hours, and I used that one to jump-start the other tanks I was setting up.  Note that this combines with the fishless cycling above very well.  Dump the crud in a tank with some ammonia already in it and let the filter clear up the mess.  The bacteria will have something to feed on and produce nitrite, for the second group of bacteria.  Your ammonia should disappear, nitrite never go above zero, and nitrate start to rise.

  6. Use an ammonia/nitrite detoxifier in an emergency - eg: amquel+. Personally, I'm a little dubious of the effects on the nitrogen cycle.  While the manufacturers claim that the use of these products won't starve the bacteria, they do change the form of the ammonia/nitrite so that it becomes a different molecule.  But.. I wonder how this affects the time taken to establish a new bacteria colony.  If there is already plenty of bacteria and you use amquel+ to change the molecules, sure.. the existing bacteria might consume the modified molecule to avoid starvation - but if its not the ideal food, will new bacteria still arrive to take up residence if the wrong "food" is present?  Footnote: I've just read other places that mention that this is a real problem during cycle establishment. eg: "The use of ammonia removers will only prolong the time needed to establish the biofilter."

  7. Relax and be patient!  This stuff takes time and really doesn't want to be hurried.  All you can do is try and make it comfortable for your fish who really don't have much of a choice about leaving if they don't like the conditions.  This is probably the most important bit of advice I can give.  I wish I'd had this drummed into me more when I started.

Traditionally, people used "disposable fish" to set up the cycle in tanks..  Even if they lived through it, they'd still be damaged and would either live a very shortened life or get struck down with some disease in their weakened state.  They'll never fully recover.

I've learned a lot over the last 6 months, most of it the hard way.  I've found the dedicated local fish store (lfs) people to be generally more helpful than generic pet store people.  Many of the people working at "fish only" places are fish enthusiasts trying to support their own die-hard fish hobby :).  Actually, thats probably an important point..  If somebody at a fish/pet store is offering you advice, ask if they keep fish themselves.  On the other hand, I've also been grilled a number of times at both petco and petsmart stores by fish enthusiast employees when it looked like I was about to do something REALLY STUPID - eg: buying a tank, filter, heater, food AND FISH - all at the same time and with no water conditioner..  If they dont freak out at something like that, they're only there to sell stuff and either don't care or don't know better.  Going home with that combination is sure to result in dead fish.  That is, unless the fish are for another tank - but if they likely will not know that and they should check.

Anyway, good luck!  If your tank has got off to a rough start, then my advice is to keep a close eye on the ammonia/nitrite levels and do partial changes as often as you need to keep it in check.  Even if that means every day - don't let your fish suffer for a week.  Water changes are stressful if there is a large temperature change, but I think the toxins are worse.  I used 5-gallon buckets for convenient preperation and siphon drain.  Don't let your fish get damaged or you're in for trouble later on.  They'll be the ones that get sickest and/or die first, and they'll be the ones that let a disease get a foothold in a tank.

[ Parent ]



Re: Ammonia Problem (none / 0) (#5)
by MimiGuppy on Sun Sep 26, 2004 at 04:43:43 PM PST

Darn.. it doesn't sound like my fish are going to live.. I would have rather waited another 3 weeks of fishless cycling, if I had known, then to have put fish in and jeopordize them! Errgg.. thanks for the info though Peter.

[ Parent ]


Re: Ammonia Problem (none / 0) (#6)
by PeterW on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 02:10:13 PM PST

I had a tank with occupants spike over 5.0 on nitrite.  I thought it had cycled, but something obviously went wrong at some point.  Ammonia was zero, but nitrite was off the scale.  One of the 10 male guppies in there died, and he was the smallest/weakest right from when I got him.  I'd never have guessed there was a problem going by all the frothing activity by the others.  I wasn't checking nitrite frequently enough because it had previously stabilized at 0, 0.

So, don't panic about the 2.0, but do try and get it down a bit and make sure it doesn't get out of control.

BTW: different test kits report nitrite levels differently.  Some report values 1/3 of the value that others report - or maybe its the other way around and some report values 3 times the level of others.  I don't know which is the majority.  I don't really remember my chemistry well enough, but I think one sort measures in such a way that the dissolved nitrogen gas is included in the value.

[ Parent ]



Re: Ammonia Problem (none / 0) (#7)
by MimiGuppy on Mon Sep 27, 2004 at 10:11:13 PM PST

Thanks Peter. You have been really helpful, it just makes me even more happy that I found this site! Anyways, please check out my new log entry called "Tank Levels" under the Aquaria Topic. It explains how my tank is doing now. And I'm only asking you to look at it because I'm too lazy to explain it all again.. :)

[ Parent ]


Welcome to Guppylog Miniguppy. (none / 1) (#2)
by unclescott on Thu Sep 23, 2004 at 11:07:49 AM PST

Miskairal's questions are really important so we get a feel for where your tank is at in its development.

Let me also ask if you are able to "season" water and if you are doing partial water changes every week.

When you say you are regularly cleaning your filter, how thorough are you at that? The reason I ask that is that almost all us, especially when starting out with guppies and other fish, clean them out too well! :0

Some of the fish books actually suggest taking a plastic bucket (only used for fishy things since it was purchased - drat another expense!) and putting a little tank water in there. Sponge filters (among the very most efficient biological filters) are squeezed out only until they only "poof" a little dirt,

Likewise if you use filter floss (or the cheaper quilt bunting) for a box filter or power filter, knock out the big pieces and some of the dust, but return it to the filter while it is still a little discolored. Much the same can be done for those filter cartridges.

Understand that the cheap bone charcoal is about worthless as a chemical filter. Use it for drainage for house plants Activated carbon is active absorbing (actually "adsorbing" but ask a chemist what that means) waste materials and toxins for a week or two.

The charcoal can probably be left in there because it becomes a biological filter as good - guy bacteria grows on the charcoal. HOWEVER, I am told that if fresh water is added to the tank, the charcoal can RELEASE toxins back into the water (it is an equilibrium thing) so don't leave the charcoal there forever. So use it for houseplant drainage after a while too. ;)

The cheapest box filter "insert" is probably a handful of gravel where the gravel is about the diameter of your little fingernail. You can do a slosh and wash and return those babies to the tank real fast.

But if you are klutzy like I am, use the hose outside so your drain doesn't fill up with gravel. Sometime I will tell the story of the family who tried to FLUSH the FILTER FLOSS! The plumber had never had to deal with that before. (Oops, there's the story.)

A sponge filter from a well-established tank can be put under the laundry room faucet and squeezed repeatedly until clean or until your hand is tired. The little chlorine, which catches there, will dissipate in the tank. The bacteria in the tank will repopulate the sponge in a day or so.

All the best!
unc;e scott

[ Parent ]



Ammonia Problem | 7 comments (7 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)
Display: Sort:

Menu

· create account

· F.A.Q. For Newbies!

· Immediate Help For Newbies!

· search


Web www.guppylog.com

· Scoop Info

· Our Tanks

Login
Make a new account
Username:
Password:

SourceForge Logo Powered by Scoop
Subscribe to our news feed
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective companies. Comments are owned by the Poster. The Rest © 2002 and beyond The Management

create account | faq | search