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What the heck is this? | 6 comments (5 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)
Hi Peter! (none / 0) (#1)
by unclescott on Sat Sep 11, 2004 at 02:24:18 PM PST

You present a pretty tough situation. You've obviously given it a lot of thought. Hopefully you can diagnose what is going on. Treatment is relatively easy after that for the ich. If your guppy had what I fear she has, isolate her and hope for the best.

If the female is indeed fairly black on the top of her head and you purchased her, there is a fair chance that she was raising in a pond during some part of her life. If that is the case she might be infected with larval digenetic flukes. The digenetic thing means that they have several hosts in their species life cycle - including snails from the wild and fish eating birds. The cycle will stop with her (unless you have a pet seagull), is usually harmless, but can't really be treated. I hope that is what it is and all you have to worry about is the treatable ich. (This from the Tropical Fishlopedia by Bailey and Burgess)

That "sort-of iridescent purple colour under the right light, and just gray-white at other times" sounds disconcertingly like columnaris, which is a fast acting bacterial problem. Please do a Google image search for what it looks like (or check the GL articles alluded to below). If you decide it is the very contagious and fast-killing columnaris, please consider the suggestions below.

My GL search also suggests you might take a look at

disease again, columnaris    
Health and Medicine
By Talonstorm [Edit User]
from the Tina department, Section Ask Guppylog
Posted on Tue Aug 31st, 2004 at 01:46:19 PST

And

Female guppies in the Northeast,,,    
By guppygirl
from the guppygirl department, Section News
Posted on Tue Jan 13th, 2004 at 08:55:46 PST

Google also suggested

White belt around females and male guppies    
Health and Medicine
By krickkett273
from the Krickkett273 department, Section Ask Guppylog
Posted on Thu Jul 22nd, 2004 at 06:45:36 PST

(Some ID links are suggested)

shedding    
By dollfin , Section Diaries
Posted on Thu Mar 25th, 2004 at 12:03:17 PST
MY FEMALE GUPPY HAS A WHITE LOOKING SUBSTANCE NEAR THE END OF HER BODY. IT ALMOST LOOKS LIKE SHE IS SHEDDING SKIN. IS THAT POSSIBLE? WHAT SEEMS TO BE THE PROBLEM AND WHAT CAN I DO TO FIX IT?

HELP Couminaris!    
Health and Medicine
By cloe [Edit User], Section Ask Guppylog
Posted on Wed Sep 17th, 2003 at 11:49:18 PST

Lost half its color...OVERNIGHT!    
Care Tips
By ashleythefish
from the Ashley the fish department, Section Ask Guppylog
Posted on Wed Apr 21st, 2004 at 16:30:45 PST

I'm sure we both wish that those neon tetras had been put in a quarantine tank. That really complicates things. If you can hold off the ich long enough to deal with the columnaris - if that is what the problem is - go for it.

Your Coppersafe/ Maracyn 2 combo is an interesting idea if the Maracyn 2 is an antibiotic and compatible with Coppersafe. What do they say on the bottle?  Does Mardel Labs have a web site where they might address the compatibility of medicines? Theoretically the Coppersafe might hold off (if not eradicate) the ich while the Maracyn 2 may treat the columnaris or other bacterial infection (fin rot).

I think you were correct in suggesting that the flashing was a response to ich. I appreciate your sensitivity to not wanting to mix meds. I'm assuming that you are making significant partial water changes between meds (or returning activated carbon to the filter to take the first medicines out.) Continue the partial water changes between medications. If you have another tank, be careful not to infect it with that siphon tube, the bucket or your hands.

It would be nice if you went to a shop, they had Metronidazole and the package said that one could use methylene blue with it. Or they had Phenoxyethanol which could be used as a bath for the columnaris and then you could treat the ich. (Always use the Phonoxyethanol as per the manufacturer's instructions so the fish are not over-dosed and "put to sleep" permanently.)

A historical note: Coppersafe, chelated copper, is a lot safer to use than the copper scouring pad a pet shop owner used to leave in his Anabandid tanks during velvet season or the pennies which old-time aquarists would toss in a suspect tank. However copper in too great a quantity can still be toxic to the fish. Even at medicinal levels it will take out any shrimp you are using for clean-up detail and possibly the snails. (Not a good thing if you have a mystery snail - see Miskairal's observations on a dead snail.) Copper is used to treat some skin dwelling protozoans (maybe including ich and velvet?) and monogenetic flukes (parasitic worms with only one host in their life cycle). It is also used against velvet, though I would recommend dimming the lights, changing the water, adding a teaspoon of salt for non-salt sensitive fishes and medicating with on of the acriflavin applications instead.

I was surprised to find a recipe for treating ich with a long-term salt bath in Burgess, Bailey and Excell's A-Z of Tropical Fish Diseases and Health problems. This is only to be used with salt tolerant fishes ' which would include guppies and most livebearers. (Corys might not be so tolerant.) Two grams per liter is their suggestion.

You may be more able to  "get away" with the use of an antibiotic and salt. Wouldn't it be nice if your LFS had a strong antibiotic/ methylene blue combo? ;)

An American gallon = approximately 3.79 liter.  An ounce = about 28.38 grams. So they are suggesting roughly 5.2 grams of salt per gallon. It might be easier to add an ounce of salt per six gallons of water. Since the water content of most "ten gallon" tanks is closer to 8.6 or 8.7 gallon and gravel is included in many tanks, maybe 1.2 ounces of salt could be added to a ten gallon tank. If you don't keep that ten-gallon tank all that full or have a lot of decorations, just add an ounce of salt to the tank along with your medication. (My math is always suspect, please feel free to correct it.)

Good luck. I apologize for the rambling answer. ID your problem best as you can. Then treat the most threatening disease first. Double-dip medication only if it seems safe.

All the best!
Scott Davis



Re: Hi Peter! (none / 0) (#2)
by PeterW on Sat Sep 11, 2004 at 11:01:06 PM PST

Argh!  I had a fairly long reply and closed the damn window while previewing it before submission.  Please forgive the brevity of this retry.

I'd found most of those articles/threads before I registered here, so I never got to see the comments..  I should have another look.

I dug up some photos from two days ago of the fish with the black top and the purple in front of the tail.   http://canning.wemm.org/~peter/fish019.jpg and http://canning.wemm.org/~peter/fish030.jpg  They are a bit grainy, but you can see the black in these.

You know, I thought I wrote about the fish with what I now think was columnaris.  It struck overnight..  the evening before it was a bleached white patch, the next morning it was all white and fluffy.  At the time I misdiagnozed it as fungus and used AP's anti-fungus (malachite green + acriflavine).  It seems to have worked.  The fluff lifted off after the meds were started, exposing the (I think) raw flesh underneath.  NASTY!  Anyway, she started growing skin/scales back instead of dying and is now very active back with the main tank.

Now the timing of this is suspicious..  She had the white "bleached" patch while she was in a breeder net right next to the fish I was asking about in this thread.  They both should have been due about the same time.  Except the one with the black on top and the purple sides dropped her fry and was moved back to the main tank.  The next day the fluff attacked the second fish.  I dont like coincidences, but I can't help but wonder.. If it is the same thing, why didn't it attack the mother so viciously too?  Why hasn't it changed for two weeks, while the victim that succumbed was virtually shredded overnight?  I just can't convince myself that its the same thing.  Or if it is, perhaps it just hasn't got a good foothold.

Anyway, the fish that had the fluff outbreak is here:  http://canning.wemm.org/~peter/fish06.jpg - but this was about a week after the outbreak.  As you can see, she's healed quite a bit.  I have a more recent photo of her here:  http://canning.wemm.org/~peter/fish045.jpg - swimming with some other (presumably pregnant) fish.

On a side note, are the fish in that last link pregnant or overfed?  The top two are (I think) overdue.  I read that they can abort or delay a drop if they're stressed..

On another note.. notice how all their eyes are dark in the photos?  They look like that for real..  Some have normal eyes, but most are dark like that.  Should I be worried?

I read about the bird/snail/fish parasite problem, but it was talking about catfish.  I didn't realize that it affected these critters too.  I would almost be relieved about that possibility except that this article http://www.solodvds.com/digenetic_flukes.asp mentions a fish->snail->fish final (deadly) phase.  I think its time to kill the remaining ramshorn snails that the yoyos haven't caught yet.  The two problem guppies were in the tank with a major snail outbreak.

Yes, Mardel specifically says that coppersafe can be used concurrently with maracyn (broad spectrum gram-positive antibiotic) and maracyn-two (broad spectrum gram-negative), as well as maroxy (fungicide plus some anti-bacterial and anti-parasitic properties).  In fact, they recommend coppersafe in parallel with any of their other treatments in case parasites take advantage of a weakened fish.  They also say that when used at their recommended doses, that it shouldn't hurt the biological filter.  Well, I'll believe that when I see it. :-)

Yes, I'm doing very regular water changes (25% - 50%) and I'll re-add new carbon to remove any traces of medication before changing to something else.

Now, lets see if I can post this instead of closing the window this time...

[ Parent ]



Re: Hi Peter! (none / 1) (#5)
by Angelee on Wed Sep 15, 2004 at 07:34:45 AM PST

    I don't believe I can add anything to US's astute observations regarding the fungus.  However,regarding the dark eyes.. a fine trait in some guppies.  Many aquarists save only those that display this trait.  The wild trait is the other that you are talking about.  It resembles a circle or light colored ring around the eye.  It is often called the googly eyed trait, and is despised by many breeders.  Nothing wrong with it, in fact it sounds like you have well-bred guppies.  
"The Rocky Mountain Gupster" ANGELEE
[ Parent ]


Hi again! (none / 0) (#4)
by unclescott on Mon Sep 13, 2004 at 03:23:30 PM PST

I can identify with closing the window too soon. That's why I'm doing this in Word Pad or sometimes Note Pad, with saves on the side, just in case ...  Also can take it over to Word to spell check, though formatting is lost returning to one of the "pads". The weird thing about answering a post or preparing a log in MS Word is that when it is posted to Guppylog, punctuation will appear as code. Some goofy number strings have been missed while proofing, no doubt puzzling correspondents.

Speaking of puzzling, so is your account of the fluff. If it lifted off the fish leaving raw, but increasingly healthy flesh, that was fungus (which feeds on dead flesh - I can see the movie now, Fungus Attack in the Aquarium). I've heard of fungus lifting like that before. It is neat that your fish is recovering. Also it is good to see that the two meds were designed to work together and did indeed work together. Great job of checking and informed shopping on your behalf.

That overhead shot does look a bit like columnaris, but maybe we are wrong. Certainly not going to loose our amateur status. I don't believe the fish was hurt by the medication though, was it?

Those females just look "full" of fry (though I was wrong once before.) I'll bet they were among those that dropped, as per your diary, today. They may look a little dark, but moods and colors change. It doesn't look like the black spot I'm familiar (a tad) with on mbuna. While darkening may be stress related, neither do they look like the sad, very dark fish shimmying in a vender's tank.

Hope you are as successful on the ich front. Keep doing mostly what you are doing in terms of moderately feeding and changing water.

I don't know if this would be helpful in your fight to not carry an illness from one tank to another but remember the advice is free and maybe worth every cent. I soak non-dissolvable equipment such as tanks, filters boxes (not sponges!) and siphon tubes in a 32-gallon, covered garbage can (dedicated to the purpose) which has three gallons of bleach added to the carefully hosed in water. After a half-hour to several day soak those items are removed, drained and placed in another covered garbage can which has a sodium thiasulfate solution in it. That is the same stuff which is in aquarium dechlorinators, but a lot cheaper if purchased as crystals. (Rarely found this way any more; it also was/is sold to photographers as Hypo Solution.)

One could also just use the exit bucket for a 10 to 1 (or maybe 20 to 1) water to bleach soak. The bucket could be dumped down a toilet or laundry sink (cleaning out the drains) and a vinegar solution added for chlorine removal. You may need to air that stuff or really hose it down until the vinegar smell goes away.

As for my hands, sometimes I'll scrub down with baking soda and return to the tank. (No soap in the tank that way.) Or maybe it's time to quit the fish care and wash some dishes or the car. ;)

All the best,
u.s.

[ Parent ]



Re: *-(:o) trying to help (none / 0) (#6)
by netnerd on Sun Sep 19, 2004 at 09:27:41 PM PST

i had this guppy-female- who had this problem.
around her tail area and lower part of her body near her tail devaloped this.

she swimmed fine but you could see this as she swimmed.

she died a few weeks later- ido not know weather she died from this green sludgey stuff on her tail or what but i guess the good news was that the other half dozen did not get in fected by her and yeah.

-netnerd-
rprldae
[ Parent ]



What the heck is this? | 6 comments (5 topical, 1 editorial, 0 hidden)
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