GuppyLog || Comments || Simple Endler question for you Endler lovers out there.

New to Guppylog?
Immediate Help

Conversions and Calculator
Conversions and Tank volume calculator

Add yourself to our guppylog map
Guppylog Members

* Change as much water as often as you can! *
Inkmaker

Front Page · Everything · News · Ask Guppylog · Diaries

Simple Endler question for you Endler lovers out there. | 17 comments (17 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: Interesting that the nearby guppies were (none / 0) (#5)
by squack15 on Tue May 18, 2004 at 03:11:53 PM PST

Well, I've done a little research and I found where Dr. John Endler commented in on a question similiar to mine. He said his Endler's and wild guppies will hybridize, however the F1 generation is sterile. Because of this, Endler's are being consided a completely different species from the wild guppy and are researched so a new specific epithet can be assigned. That is why they are now known as Poecilia sp. Endler said he wants the name to be something similiar to hawkinsi after I believe one of his assistants. The more I reasearch the more I'm loving these fish. Might be worth saving a little money and taking a trip down to Venezuela:).

[ Parent ]

Was this a recent comment by Dr Endler? (none / 0) (#6)
by unclescott on Tue May 18, 2004 at 09:02:33 PM PST

That's interesting if recently made, in that he still feels the uniqueness of that livebearer means that they deserve species status.

Would you have the source (URL?) handy?

Thanks and all the best!
Scott Davis

[ Parent ]

Re: Was this a recent comment by Dr Endler? (none / 0) (#7)
by squack15 on Wed May 19, 2004 at 12:54:19 AM PST

Yeah, here is the main website where I found Dr. Endler's letter:

http://www.aquariumhobbyist.com/endlerslivebearer/index.html

and here is Dr. Endler's Letter:

http://www.thekrib.com/Fish/p-endlers.html#1

[ Parent ]

Thanks! That site on Endler's was a new one. (none / 0) (#8)
by unclescott on Wed May 19, 2004 at 01:29:10 AM PST

It had a number of interesting links. One was to Ron Newcombe's site home page. Can you get the banner at the bottom of the page to open his site.

That Letter from Dr. Endler was a response to A Richard Sexton inquiry almost nine years ago. Originally published on one of several alt.aquaria sites Richard set up, it has been republished (obviously in the Krib), the Livebearer Mailing list and Newcomb's site.

I wonder if he still feels that way.

[ Parent ]

Re: Thanks! That site on Endler's was a new one. (none / 0) (#9)
by JBo on Wed May 19, 2004 at 10:12:47 PM PST

The articles at http://fishiezoo.com/endlers are made mostly from John Endler's email correspondance with myself. Especially the about and history sections. They basically say what has been said here. One thing that I don't think has been mentioned and that he asked me to amend on my own site is that though the f1 hybrids are often sterile, they are not always that way making it even more important not to let the hybrids out into the general hobby population.

By the way, I don't have a lot of time of late to read all these sites as much as I would like, so if you have questions regarding this post, please email me or contact me on fishiezoo.com.

Jim

[ Parent ]

Jim, if you have been corresponding with Dr. (none / 0) (#10)
by unclescott on Thu May 20, 2004 at 08:42:41 AM PST

Endler, I think that is great. Hobbyists either don't bother to ask academics questions or they ask within such a tight time frame that I could see that the request might cause resentment where it seems that answers would be demanded of a person instantaneously.

When did you correspond with Dr. Endler?

You have a great shot of P. parae on your site. Do you do anything special with their water?

Thanks and all the best,
Scott Davis

[ Parent ]

Re: Jim, if you have been corresponding with Dr. (none / 0) (#11)
by JBo on Fri May 21, 2004 at 12:44:48 PM PST

I've been talking to him off and on via email for the last 6 months or so. He's always very willing to help.

I've never raised P. Parae myself. Felix Breden (another academic similar to Dr. Endler) gave us those pictures to use. Both Dr. Endler and Breden gave us good info for their profile.

Jim

[ Parent ]

What do you think of this US and JBo? (none / 0) (#12)
by squack15 on Fri May 21, 2004 at 11:22:36 PM PST

I was relayed the message today via an LPS owner from a breeder in Florida that the endler guppy is not an independent species at all. This breeder said it is only a wild strain guppy which has been bred with a fancy guppy to produce the endler guppy. They said that this "endler guppy" was the creation of one man to try and make money. This breeder said he would not carry them.
Ok, first how could this be a scheme to make money?? Endler's are by no means expensive compared to fancy guppies. Also, assuming that the research done with hybridization by Dr. Endler is true, (and I am NOT questioning his conclusions!) the endler is on a different evolutionary path than Poecilia reticulata.
Has this guy just not done his research or what?? This harsh answer really surprised me. What do you guys think?

[ Parent ]

Re: What do you think of this US and JBo? (none / 0) (#13)
by JBo on Sun May 23, 2004 at 11:54:56 PM PST

Well honestly I have yet to decide for myself whether they are a true species or not. I think I'll leave that up to the experts to decide.

As for the rest of what he said, it's crap. They are rather similar to wild guppies, but are not a wild guppy bred with a fancy guppy. They apparently have different gonopodiums, although I've never looked close enough to tell you for sure whether this is true. Their heads are also shaped a little differently.

Here's some history you can pass on to him:
http://fishiezoo.com/endlers/history.html

The above article was written by myself and John Endler.

It is possible to cross guppies and endlers which is why they should never be kept together. Sadly many fish that appear in hobby stores as "Endler's Livebearers" are endlers which are crossed with guppies to increase their fry outputs then backcrossed with pure endlers to make them retain their bright colors. Also sad is that if you do find pure strain endlers in stores you can often only obtain males. The breeders don't want competition.

[ Parent ]

Re: What do you think of this US and JBo? (none / 0) (#14)
by squack15 on Mon May 24, 2004 at 05:57:59 AM PST

I've already read the article on the Endler written by Dr. John Endler. That is interesting with hybridizing the Endler with a guppy and crossing it back with another Endler. I thought the F1 generation was suppose to be sterile a vast majority of the time. As far as Endler's, I did buy mine from a chain pet store. What would the chance be my fsh are not even Endler's? I have also noticed the lack of females in stores. Two stores I know of carry the males. But neither can get the breeder to sell them females.

[ Parent ]

Re: What do you think of this US and JBo? (none / 0) (#15)
by JBo on Mon May 24, 2004 at 01:35:12 PM PST

A lot of the f1 hybrids are sterile, but not all of them. You only need the hybrid females for the above example, so it's easy enough to tell which ones can and cannot have fry within a couple of months. The ones that don't get pregnant are just culled.

I can't say whether or not your fish are true endlers. If they're only selling males it's very possible. Where are you that they sell them in a store? I've never seen them anywhere but on aquabid or sites like this. Whether they are true Endler's or not, I'm sure they are great fish.

Jim

[ Parent ]

Re: What do you think of this US and JBo? (none / 0) (#17)
by squack15 on Wed May 26, 2004 at 04:33:11 PM PST

Sorry for the delay, I just got back from a Seasonal Seminar down at Lake Barkley State Park.
I got my Endler's from PetSmart in Evansville Indiana. They informed me that they obtained all their tropical fish from a breeder in Florida. They did not tell me the specifics. Oh, the fish is great!! But I wan't to do a little work and get a large breeding population in a large aquarium. I've heard the origional Endler's have no defined strains, so I plan on allowing the different strains we have now all interbreed within one another and over the period of many years have once again have a fish as variable as the ones Dr. Endler first brought from Venezuela. So breeding true blood fish is important.

[ Parent ]

"This breeder said it is only a wild strain (none / 0) (#16)
by unclescott on Mon May 24, 2004 at 08:16:28 PM PST

guppy which has been bred with a fancy guppy..." Probably the nephew of the Five and Dime Lady who informed me (when just a wee laddie) that fancy guppies were the product of wild guppies and Bettas!

Who said our hobby has no folklore? ;)

[ Parent ]

Simple Endler question for you Endler lovers out there. | 17 comments (17 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

Display: Sort:

Menu

· create account

· F.A.Q. For Newbies!

· Immediate Help For Newbies!

· search

· Scoop Info

· Our Tanks

Login

Make a new account

Username:

Password:

create account | faq | search