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I'm lossing a guppy a day | 19 comments (19 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

Re: I'm lossing a guppy a day (none / 1) (#12)
by PeterW on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 03:02:49 PM PST

Here's a thought.. There are several really nasty parasites that use snails as an intermediate host. Worms for one.

When you next get a dead guppy, try putting it in a jar or container of water for 24-36 hours or so. (Somewhere that your daughter wont see it)

See if little red or white stringy things come out of the rear vent. If they do, then you have camallanus worms. It would certainly explain the one-a-day deaths if so.

Getting rid of the worms is a real pain. I had a widespread outbreak here. As near as I can tell, the worming agents are:

Piperazine: ideal for camallanus, but hard on the fish. And hard to get - it is chemically similar to viagra. You can get it in pet stores in dog or cat wormers but those come with other nasty things mixed in to make sure that people won't take it. I dont want to know what effects those other ingredients will have on the tank.

Levamisole: ideal for camallanus, also hard on the fish. I got some pure levamisole HCL powder from here: http://www.inkmkr.com/Fish/ It worked a treat. Charles lists a formula for mixing it with water so that you can use 1ml of the solution per gallon of water. (Remove carbon first etc). A single 24-hour treatment across all 20-something tanks I had at the time wiped it out for me.

Praziquantel: readily available in fish stores (bottled as prazi-pro etc), but utterly useless for camallanus. It does kill most other worms though, and is really easy on the fish. It is safe enough to use as an automatic quarantine treatment.

Beware.. these worms dig into the intestines. When they're killed, they detach and it can cause internal bleeding. In badly infested cases, the fish then get bacterial infections and die anyway. Or the worms can get tangled up when they die and get stuck in the intestine and block it, and start rotting inside. In other words, treating badly infested fish can kill them anyway. But if you know you have the worms, it is the only way to break the cycle.

I do not know what effect this stuff will have if there are snails in the tank. It might kill them all, so read up first.

But anyway, do put the dead fish in water and see if worms come out...... Not all of them do, but if they're dying regularly, check two or three.

If any single fish has camallanus worms, then they all will have them. This parasite is extremely contagious and will jump from one tank to another via nets, water splashes, etc. You'll have to treat every single tank concurrently, and your nets, filters, etc.

The good news about such a treatment is that the (none / 1) (#14)
by unclescott on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 03:43:02 PM PST

tanks and younger fishes should come through in fine shape. Jodybr, if you haven't already, you may want to take a look at the recent Camallanus log on GL and the items on it in the Quicklinks. Several other medicines also have anthelmintics in them.

Peter, I was surprised by the criticism of Praziquantel. Maybe it is the combination of ingredients in Prazi-pro. Doug Sweet, Aquarist at the Belle Isle (Detroit) Aquarium, has sung it's praises as a dewormer.

Doug has also unraveled tapeworms lodged inside minnows. The tapeworms were many times the length of the fish. (Yech!)

As with the salt, we have so many treatment options in the U.S., that if we are not comfortable with one treatment, it is nice to know that there are other meds in the same medicinal "family" which will do the same thing.

You mention Charles Harrison. He was selling and promoting another anthelmintic as even more soluble than Levamisole. All of a sudden it is no longer available. It turns out that the manufacturer went out of business!

All the best!
u.s.

[ Parent ]

Re: The good news about such a treatment is that t (none / 0) (#15)
by PeterW on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 10:26:31 PM PST

Praziquantel kills just about everything else. Nematodes and camallanus are specifically not on the list of worms it kills on the bottle I have. My experiences tell me that it is true. I treated my male guppy tank (with an active camallanus infestation) twice with no effect. With levamisole, there were dead worms all over the bare glass bottom the next morning. That never happened with praziquantel (prazi-pro).

Yes, I know about the one that disappeared. It was a capsule form of piperazine citrate, packaged as "Pipzine". You could buy it in packets of 5 or 100 capsules. The last time I checked, you could still buy them in small quantities on aquabid from people with a stockpile.

Levamisole is supposedly a bit harsh on the fish. But it is nothing compared to the worms. I believe piperazine citrate is actually the best camlallanus dewormer (least harsh side effects).

As an aside:
"Viagra is a synthetic heterocyclic piperazine derivative. Other pharmaceuticals derived from piperazine include antihistamines, antidepressants and motion-sickness drugs. An aqueous solution of piperazine is commonly used in the manufacture of polyamide resins, epoxy curing agents, and urethanes applied as spray foams, building panels, elastomers, and is utilized for automobile and appliance construction. In a restricted-use pesticide (marketed as triforine) it is labeled to treat a wide variety of food crops, cotton, tobacco, and many horticultural species for fungal infections."

Piperazine certainly seems to get around...

[ Parent ]

Re: The good news about such a treatment is that t (none / 2) (#16)
by PeterW on Thu Dec 30, 2004 at 10:53:06 PM PST

BTW: unclescott: prazi-pro is simply praziquantel, no other active ingredients. It lists its effectiveness as:

Flukes
Tapeworm
Flatworm
Turbellarians

Note, no roundworms or nematodes.

I looked up some of the other anti-parasite treatments I have..

Jungle's Anti-parasite medicated fish food contains:

metronidazole
praziquantel
levamisole

Jungle's effective list adds nematodes and protozoa to the list. It seems they added levamisole for nematodes (eg: camallanus) and metronidazole for protozoa. I dont see why they'd add levamisole if it was already taken care of by praziquantel.

I did some more searches and it seems common (even for humans) to use something else for nematodes, alongside praziquantel.

I feel confident in my assertion that praziquantel is useless for camallanus.

References:

http://www.merck.com/mrkshared/mmanual/section13/chapter161/161e.jsp (nematode infections, use albendazole, Mebendazole, piperazine citrate, or pyrantel)
http://www.merck.com/mrkshared/mmanual/section13/chapter161/161g.jsp (tapeworms, use praziquantel)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8545746&d

opt=Abstract (use albendazole for nematodes, along with praziquantel for trematode and cestodes, and metronidazole for protozoan infections)

The last one spells out what each is for.

[ Parent ]

Wow! Thank you for the info. Though I'm glad (none / 0) (#17)
by unclescott on Fri Dec 31, 2004 at 08:26:59 AM PST

it has been a while since breakfast! ;)

You got more on Jungle's medicated food than I could get in an e-mail to them on the more conventional anti-worming med. !

It is wise to underestimate, rather than over estimate which a treatment may do. It is curious what they omitted

Again, it is interesting (and probably logical) that our tropical fish meds are spin offs of things prepared to help human.

That Merck site looks searchable without a membership. Perhaps it has even more to offer.

All the best!
u.s.

[ Parent ]

Re: Wow! Thank you for the info. Though I'm glad (none / 1) (#18)
by PeterW on Fri Dec 31, 2004 at 03:42:46 PM PST

Heh. One good thing to figure out early on is what the alternate names and species are for common names.

eg: tapeworm => cestode; flatworm => trematode; flukes, flagellates, hemamita => protozoan; nematodes are roundworms, etc.

That way when you're cross referencing drugs vs bugs, you can keep your sanity. Or lose less of it anyway.

Human and livestock medical info seems to be a pretty good source of info about what these drugs are effective against. For example, praziquantel is primarily for flatworms and relatives (trematodes), and protozoa (including flagellates) (cestodes).

Metronidazole seems to have several properties including antibiotic and anti-protozoa (cestode). I believe its the drug-of-choice for the heximita (hole-in-the-head) protozoa (cestode). The fact that it has antibiotic properties would make it extra useful in fish worming medications to reduce the risk of internal infections after any intestinal worms detach.

Levamisole is also an anti-cancer drug in humans as well as being used as an immune system stimulant. In humans, it is sometimes used alongside praziquantel for the stimulation effect to enable praziquantel to work better.

For worms, Levamisole is a paralyzing agent. They are often expelled alive.. hence the need to vacuum them up. (eep! I wasn't aware of this! See http://www.elephantcare.org/Drugs/levamis.htm under Pharmacology)

Praziquantel works by disturbing the worm's internal membranes. They kinda self destruct by leaking into themselves. Roundworms don't have the same membranes.

Another example.. a cat worming site:
"Some worming medications are effective against both roundworm and tapeworm, while others are only effective against one or the other."

"Drontal cat TM (Bayer)
Contains pyrantel (active against roundworm) and praziquantel (active against tapeworm), in a tablet form."

There's another reference for praziquantel not being effective against for roundworms (implicitly nematodes). But that wouldn't show up on a search for camallanus or nematodes.

Another good guide is my wife's many-thousand-page pharmacutical guide and cross-reference. :-)

[ Parent ]

Re: Wow! Thank you for the info. Though I'm glad (none / 0) (#19)
by miskairal on Sat Jan 01, 2005 at 12:12:31 AM PST

Great stuff for the QuickLinks page!
--
Repeat after me,
I will read the Immediate Help
[ Parent ]

I'm lossing a guppy a day | 19 comments (19 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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