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A Pretty Good Solution to Pollution | 15 comments (15 topical, editorial, 0 hidden)

And the veracity referee throws a yellow (none / 0) (#5)
by unclescott on Fri Nov 07, 2003 at 03:51:33 PM PST

flag in the air. "30 yards for overstating the case!"

Yah got me Nate. In my enthusiasm, I overstated what bleach can do. Thank you for reining in that ultimate claim.

That is an interesting article on the Minnesota Aquarium Society site. Imagine a grammaris moving around in a chlorox solution! I can't keep them alive for long in a food culture!

Notice that it is hard shelled creatures and maybe wee beasties with tough external membranes which can survive the bleach.

Northern California's Wright Huntley has also criticized the use of bleach to eliminate mycobacteria as ineffective. He contends that rubbing alcohol, spread on empty tank sides will break down their cell walls.

Notice that I threw the gravel out (a little uncomfortable as to how effectively that stuff will be entombed in a landfill). Normally I would have boiled the gravel. Closed homes in the winter make that awfully unpopular sometimes.

(Oh for a camp stove for the garage! If we had a garage.)

I still think that bleach will clean out a vast number of bacteria, grime and algae from tanks. A startling suggestion in a couple of plant postings has proposed quickly dipping algae infested aquarium plants in a bleach solution. Don't have the confidence to do that, except maybe with the toughest of plants.

Do medical people still suggest using bleach to clean up after blood spills in this age of aids?

Let's rename that article "A Way To Zap Aquarium Grime." Not as exciting, but it avoids the sin of hyperbole. (I've been told a million times not to exaggerate!)

By the way, maybe the toughest things to get out of aquaria are those little cone shaped livebearing snails. They seem to shut themselves up in their shells when bleach is added to the gravel. Amazingly, some aquarists maintain that boiling does not guarantee that all of them will be eliminated either.

Those snails are fine scavangers in guppy tanks and they move the gravel around (eliminating growing pockets of nasty stuff like hydrogen sulfide - the rotten-egg smelling, evil toxic stuff). They are also beneficial in planted tanks because that sifting of the gravel allows nutrients and fresher, oxygenated water to circulate to plant roots.

They are really prolific. Since they hide under the gravel until after lights out, aquarists are often started by the 100s crawling up on tank sides at night. Also disconcerting is the tendancy of gravel to suddenly lurch a couple of mm to the side. (More than one person has done a double take and looked critically at that glass of milk they were drinking as a nightcap.)

On the other hand, those little guys are such dedicated carnivores that people trying to spawn egglayers go nuts when nothing hatches out after what should be successful spawnings. They are as effective at scarfing up eggs as Corydorus.

Loaches should eat a lot of those snails, but probably will not eradicate all of them. Does anybody have suggestions on how to get rid of them short of tossing the gravel?

Had to check which MAS you met. In addition to Minnesota Aquarium Society there is also the Missouri A.S. Don't know about a Madagascar club yet. :)

Minnesota has had a terrific publication for years. Their web site was one of the early biggies on the Internet. The merger of those two media is a natural and a great favor for those on the Net.

Their shows are remarkable. They are not the only club which asks exhibiters to show species class fish in planted tanks, but they go so far as to try and display them in something resembling biotypes! For example, powerhead produced currents, swirling around rocks in long 20s are provided for river fish. Schooling fish are displayed in groups of six or so - judges are supposed to "judge" the best fish in the school. Their behavior is a whole lot different from a single tetra marooned in a drum bowl. It is incredibly impressive.

As for the other MAS in the U.S., they are a highly thought of club too. Maybe we'll get to visit their show next April. :)

Thanks and all the best,
Egg-on-the-face Scott

[ Parent ]

bleach (none / 0) (#14)
by Nate on Tue Nov 11, 2003 at 04:33:27 AM PST

unc-Just for the record, I tossed a few gammarus into a tank ahead of the bleach and it dropped all of them. But a couple days later the same water did show some critters of some sort when I put it under the 'scope.
I've never been able to get gammarus to culture in large numbers but if you have excess java moss, it helps. Methinks it's their favorite Baskins and Robbins flavor.

One interesting point to throw out about bleach. Several years ago I put about a quart of bleach into a 20 gal that contained a few sickly gups. Killed all but one. He swam about merrily for a couple weeks. He expired when I stirred the mix.
Moral of story: Bleach settles to the bottom, folks.

[ Parent ]

I think the Java moss is likely to be more (none / 0) (#15)
by unclescott on Tue Nov 11, 2003 at 05:33:59 AM PST

valuable than the gammarous. :) Once raised a nice crop if them in a 10 gallon tank crowded with Aponogeton crispus. Dropped a pair of Epiplatys in there and the gaping holes in the crispus went away.

Daphnia (in several species) are so much easier to raise as live foods, gammarous (also in several species) aren't really worth the bother.

Fishing bait dealers will sometimes carry a large gammarous species for bait. Somebody way up north must have dedicated a big old pond or old swimming pool out in the woods to their culture. Those gammarous - also called scuds - probably could take a guppy two out of three.

Smaller scuds (not the missiles) will also live beneath a u.g. filter plate (at least one without bleach), work through the gravel, and provide tank residents with a surprise snack.

Good Night!
u.s.

[ Parent ]

a snail solution (none / 1) (#9)
by Phry on Sat Nov 08, 2003 at 09:33:29 PM PST

Aquarium snails are, well, something else. Bleaching and boiling are not always effective... as a matter of fact, I had an enormous outbreak in one tank recently, tried a million solutions, and failed... around that time, I made the exciting move-by-car from Chicago to Phoenix (surprising how well guppies survive in a jostled cooler with a batt-op air pump). I took the gravel in question, boiled, washed, and dried it, put it in a bag, and didn't touch it for literally three weeks. After I re-rinsed that gravel and set it up in a tank, THERE WERE STILL SNAILS! Luckily, there were only a handful remaining, and I managed to find a lovely solution. There is a breed of dwarf puffer called a South American Puffer, which is freshwater, able to tolerate salt, 70-80 temp range, and generally very, very peaceful unlike the majority of its puffer kin (although some S.A.'s may nip fins at feeding time, many will not... watch their behavior before you buy). They are not schooling fish and can be kept 1 to a tank if desired, and they don't even seem to notice other fish (except for one week where the young puffer followed my guppies and pretended to be one!) S.A. Puffers will eat snails, and the vigorous ritual is very comforting for those who have had snail problems :) The only 'problem' is that they won't eat flake food; bloodworms are the real loves of their life, but I've found that guppies are almost as enthusiastic about bloodworms as the puffer is, so the 'investment' in worms is worth it. In short, S.A. Puffers seem to be perfect companions both for guppies and snail-hating aquarium owners. And they're really cute little fish. They can be very hard to find at an LFS, but when you see it pick up a snail and bash it against a rock, you'll know you've made a good choice :) Of course, as was mentioned, snails can be excellent tank-cleaners and do have their beneficial properties.... but they can also get so, so annoying...

[ Parent ]

p.s. (none / 0) (#10)
by Phry on Sat Nov 08, 2003 at 09:50:07 PM PST

One extra bonus: my puffer shows absolutely no interest in eating fry, either. Not sure how typical that is, but a plus nonetheless.

[ Parent ]

A puffer who thought it was a guppy! (none / 0) (#11)
by unclescott on Sat Nov 08, 2003 at 11:57:29 PM PST

Puffy S.A. no doubt.

Now that you have that puffer though, you will need to feed it snails once in a while or it actually might develop a potentially fatal overbite. Just as rodents need to recreationally gnaw on things because their teeth keep growing, so puffers need to keep crunching snails or their fused cutting edges on their jaws can grow too much.

Sone friends of our who lived on the SW side of Chicago near Midway Airport, about 50 minutes north of us, had a puffer for several years. It was family. It also got to the point where it had a hard time eating effectively because it couldn't close it's mouth properly.

It happened that they knew of a Wisconsin veternarian who did an annual a one day tour through the Chicago area, consulting with pet shops and visiting pond people.

They asked if they could be on his itinerary. He consented and in due time made his house call. After examining the fish, he pulled out what was effectively a giant toenail cutter, trimmed the puffers fused teeth (sort of like a turtle's mouth?) top and bottom.

The puffer could dine normally after that. However Dr. Krebus recommended adding a snail to the tank on a regular basis. :)

Aren't you glad guppies don't have those requirements. Can you imagine the tiny, tiny fingernail cutter for Poecilia reticulatus? ;)

[ Parent ]

puffers and snails (none / 0) (#12)
by Phry on Sun Nov 09, 2003 at 12:12:10 AM PST

I can't imagine doing that with a guppy OR a puffer... thanks for letting me know of the potential complications, though. I have indeed been keeping it well-fed on snails, because I appreciate the janitorial work the snails perform before they become dinner. I wasn't aware of the importance of keeping snails in there for the puffer's sake, though. My favorite way to get snails is to buy anacharis (elodea canadensis) from almost any LFS; the broad, flat leaves often visibly house dozens and dozens of snail eggs, and provide a great place for snails to lay more. If at some point I needed to breed some snails, though, how would you suggest I set that up?

[ Parent ]

If at some point you needed to breed snails... (none / 0) (#13)
by unclescott on Sun Nov 09, 2003 at 01:38:45 AM PST

don't breed them with the Puffer! (rim-shot)

Snails and guppies go together well because their tank requirements are pretty much alike (somewhat hard water, omnivorous diet...). Just keep up the water changes (w/o siphoning too many snails out) and overfeed the guppies. :)

I have some tanks with an R.O. mix for breeding selected killies. There is less mineral in the water. The snails' shells get thinner and thinner, actually dissolving! In time they disappear.

One actually could peddle plants from those tanks as snail free. That is a big deal to a few people breeding egglayers.

As with Guppy Girl's clown loach tank, the younger snails are more at risk. Long term, if someone wanted to get rid of all the snails in an aquarium, they could just keep the water soft or loaches in residence and eventually the tough older snails would die of old age but without issue.

It's funny how we have too much of something which is almost to even a pest - a snail population, greenwater or maybe a rapidly reproducing plant like hornwort or val. When we need it for a special project, there's never enough. ;)

[ Parent ]

Snails, bleach, egg..... (none / 1) (#7)
by guppygirl on Sat Nov 08, 2003 at 11:49:15 AM PST

Hi unclescott,

As for bleach, I don't use it very often on my aquarium stuff, the vapors are too strong for me.

I have read that it isn't very effective for killing snails, and some of the other really nasty stuff that drives me crazy.
I did know about the lava rock, wish I could have helped you in time there.

I have read that an extremely strong saline solution is better. Yup, good old table salt again!!! But whatever you put in it, gravel, decorations etc. must be rinsed, and rinsed, and rinsed to be free from the salt before adding back to the tank.

Lava rock would probably behave the same way as with the bleach, so the good old toothbrush is the only really safe way I've found to clean those.

As for the snails, I tried everything and finally did purchase a pair of clown loaches. You might already know this.
Another thing about snails is that they can often survive the journey through a fishes intestines, just to come out in the nice, clean (thought to be snail-free) tank!!!!!
Now, granted, my loaches have not been able to wipe out the snail population entirely, but I really didn't want them too.

Just keep it in check.

What I've noticed is that, although I still have some larger snails, all the wee little beasties are gone.
I think what happens is that they can devour the little ones before their shells really develop, and are great at hunting out and eating the eggs.

The snails that are left I could just pick out with my hands, if I wanted too. But they do a good job keeping the inside glass clean, so they can stay.

Actually, if you asked all the kids in the neighborhood, "What's the best thing in guppygirl's tanks?" The snails would win hands down. GO FIGURE!!! :-)

The clown loaches are great foragers too, they are constantly rooting through the gravel(sometimes spinning upside down to get that last little-crumb-stuck-underneath-this-piece-of-gravel, uuuuhhhh, there, got it, munch, munch, munch) yes, a hoot to watch!!!

The only issue that I have with them is that they uproot my plants all the time. But, it's a small price to pay for all of the fine work they do.

As for the egg on your face, I wish I could hand you a towel. O.K., so sometimes you get a little hyperbolic, and tend to sensationalize a bit when you write, but that just keeps the reader from falling asleep. ;-)

I still consider you to be, "The virtual aquarist's mentor extraordinaire."
And that's NO exaggeration!!!!
:-)

[ Parent ]

"As for bleach, I don't use it very often ... (none / 0) (#8)
by unclescott on Sat Nov 08, 2003 at 04:41:28 PM PST

... the vapors are too strong for me."

Ahhh. Maybe that's the problem. ;)

Potassium permanganate is used more now-a-days to clean up plants. However the old fashioned soak of plants in a gallon of water with a dissolved teaspoon of alum for 20 minutes may still be more effective.

The alum must be dissolved in a small quantity of hot water before being added to the gallon jar or other soaking container. And as you suggest for other treatments, the plants must be rinsed well and then rinsed again. That should be good for getting rid of leaches and transient fish eggs, most snails and many (probably not all) disease organisms.

Your salt treatments are among the safest because trace quantities of sodium chloride are not likely to be a problem in a tank.

I knew a guy who used to drop pond snails in an alum mixture just to watch them shrivel up. He may have been a little troubled...

Those darn Malaysian livebearing snails would probably just close those nearly indestructable trap doors and going about business after rinsings. :(

By the way, would putting plants in pots let the loaches forage without bothering the plants too much?

Would large loaches inhale baby guppies by the bye? (That mouth size factor again.)

Clown loaches, foraging, socializing and sleeping on their sides (always guaranteed to traumatize the aquarist the first time that is seen) are a lot more fun than using household chemicals on a tank though.

[ Parent ]

bleach (none / 0) (#6)
by Nate on Sat Nov 08, 2003 at 04:31:47 AM PST

unclescott-Didn't mean to put egg on yer face. Bleach is probably effective on 95-99% of anything living in a tank but it's a long way from perfect, esp. if what you want to kill is in that 5-%. Somewhere I read about some organisms that can curl up when the bleach hits and have an exoskeleton or some other type of "hide" that allows them to withstand the treatment. Also, I question it's ability to kill many types of eggs and this is particularily pertintent to anyone with intestinal parasite problems.

[ Parent ]

A Pretty Good Solution to Pollution | 15 comments (15 topical, 0 editorial, 0 hidden)

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